Episode 9: Art, Design & Culture with AphroChic

Welcome to The Gallery Date, a weekly date with Jenn Singer to chat about art and life and perhaps the art of life, all in bite sized, not-at-all fancy, but definitely savory episode nuggets

This week, Jenn hosts her first ever guests on The Gallery Date! She sits down with Jeanine Hays and Bryan Mason of AphroChic to discuss art, design, culture and their new book that drops November 15th, APHROCHIC: Celebrating the Legacy of the Black Family Home. This extended Gallery Date, full-length interview, covers everything from heirlooms and art in the Black family home to the historical and personal significance of home ownership for the Black community.

APHROCHIC: Celebrating the Legacy of the Black Family Home, published by Clarkson Potter, is available for pre-order now, shipping worldwide on November 15, 2022. Links are below:

APHROCHIC: Celebrating the Legacy of the Black Family Home
AphroChic.com

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This podcast is brought to you by Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer Gallery.

Credits:
Images shown with permission from

AphroChic: Celebrating the Legacy of the Black Family Home

Published by Clarkson Potter, an imprint of Penguin Random House.

TRANSCRIPT

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Welcome to The Gallery Date.

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I'm Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer Gallery.

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Thanks for joining me for our weekly date to chat about art and life and

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perhaps the art of life all in bite size, not at all fancy, but definitely

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savory episode nuggets.

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Let's mingle, my friends.

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Don't forget to press record, Jenn.

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Well hey there.

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Thanks so much for joining me today for our gallery vape.

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I am so happy to see you.

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Thank you for joining me today.

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I've been so looking forward to this episode.

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I get to host my first ever guest on the show.

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Jeanine Hayes and Bryan Mason of AphroChic.

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This is a really special episode because I get to sit down with Jeanine and

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Bryan to discuss their new book launching on November 15, 2022, titled

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AphroChic: Celebrating the Legacy of the Black Family Home. It is a powerful,

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visually stunning celebration of Black owned homes.

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Featuring inspiring interiors and family histories of notable Black

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Americans, including chef Alexander Smalls and actor Danielle Brooks.

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With engaging text and beautiful photographs by the late Patrick Cline, this

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book amplifies many issues currently faced by African Americans, including

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gentrification, redlining and more.

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Highlighting the Black family home as a missing piece in the narrative of

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both interior design and American history.

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Showcasing the amazing diversity of the Black experience through striking

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art and heirloom filled interiors, stories of family and community, and

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histories exploring the obstacles Black homeowners have faced for

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generations, this groundbreaking book honors the journey, recognizes the

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struggle and celebrates the joy.

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For more than a decade, AphroChic has been documenting the Black family home

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and Black contributions in the world of design through projects with HGTV

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and House Beautiful and in their own publication, AphroChic Magazine.

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Jeanine Hayes and Bryan Mason are the authors of Remix: Decorating with

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Culture, Objects and Soul, their media and design brand, Aphrochic

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celebrates African diaspora cultures through their lifestyle, magazine,

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podcast and product lines, which are available through Perigold and 1stDibs

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The couple resides in upstate New York in their lovingly named AphroFarmhouse

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And now, without further ado, Jeanine and Bryan. AphroChic in the

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house! Hello!

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This is so exciting.

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Glad to be here.

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Jeanine and Brian, I am so excited to see you both.

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Welcome to The Gallery Date.

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You're getting us in the morning.

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We are not morning folks, but we got

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10:00 is not something we would do for anyone.

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That is okay.

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We were like only for Jenn.

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I love you all so much.

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We are really excited to be here.

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I mean, it's like, you know, we don't get to see you that often, so anytime

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we get to talk to you, we're so happy to be able to.

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Yeah, we're all kind of like Brooklyn, like New York expats at this point.

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We hang out like we used to come by your gallery and just

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kind of hang out in the area, walking around.

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It's one of those New York memories that just kind of keeps popping up for

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us. Oh, I miss those days so much.

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I miss y'all so much.

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Yeah. Anyway, we're going to have some catching up to do, but well, thank

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you so much.

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You are my first ever interviewees on the show.

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And huge congratulations on your new book.

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It's dropping in November, and it's called AphroChic: Celebrating the

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Legacy of the Black Family Home.

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It is not only visually stunning, you guys, but the personal stories of home

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and culture and history drew me in and they are so moving.

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I love this book.

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I've known you both for years now, obviously.

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I think it's been like eight years, I think.

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Wow. Yeah, I know.

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I was trying to do the math and I was like, I think it's been eight years,

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and since I've known you, you continue to create, build, grow and inspire.

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So thank you so much for taking the time to be here today.

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So my first question is, how are you feeling about the launch? I mean, I

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think with every book, this is the second one and you're just really happy

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to get it out.

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I think that's kind of it.

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People do compare people had children compare it to having children.

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Like it's like, it's great we got here.

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Now it's time for you to go out and like us to start this journey.

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So I think we're really excited for people to be able to read it in November

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and this time actually talking to people before it actually is out in

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bookstores for sale.

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We've just really enjoyed the response that people have had to the book so

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far and the enthusiasm for it, because I think for us, it was just a book

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that we wanted to do and we felt like had it been done before and was going

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to broaden a conversation and people are getting that.

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So that's actually been a really cool feeling for us.

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Yeah, it's really cool to kind of be doing this again.

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I guess we never really expected to write the first book until it kind of

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came up, and then even when the second book came up, we were like, all

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right, well, this really seems like it's the right time.

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And we're positioned perfectly for the conversation that we want to have.

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They're not necessarily like direct sequels, but they kind of fit together.

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So if remakes is sort of the start of a conversation, we kind of see the

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Black family home as the continuation of that conversation.

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So in the first one we're very much about here is how you use the different

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pieces of material design to tell a story.

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And Celebrating a Black Family home, the point is really to now let's start

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talking about the story.

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Like these stories that we have to tell.

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And a lot of it just going along with not really seeing a lot of black homes

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represented in design books on TV, things like that.

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But then also, we didn't want to create something that simply showed black

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people in luxurious homes because there's so much to the question of home

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and to the issue of housing for black Americans that a fuller story needed

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to be told.

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And thankfully, we were able to tell that in whatever small part we could to

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try and bring together just enough to give a sense of how wide and

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pervasive, but also how meaningful and important on so many levels this

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story is.

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Yes, I love the depth that it gets into and history and the history of home

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and the black experience.

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So you mentioned in the book that the black family home is a vibe more than

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just a place where people live.

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It's a feeling.

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And this book has a whole vibe, y'all, I can tell you that.

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I couldn't put it down, to be honest.

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I usually have to do, like, audiobooks because I work a lot and I have a

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toddler, so I only usually get to listen to books while I'm working out.

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But I got this digital galley copy and started reading it, and I was like,

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Cancel everything.

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I'm busy.

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Mama's busy.

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Don't bother me.

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Emails off.

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No emails.

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Poor little Maddox was just like he was like,Mama, Mama.

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I was like, no, Mama has to finish this book.

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I was into it.

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We love to hear that

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We love that's become very hugely important because when you write a

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design book, when you're working in design, everything is about the visuals.

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And that's always the constant give and take in our book writing processes.

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Having space for the imagery, but also the words.

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Because for us, the words count, the words matter, and we want the two to

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work together, so we don't want the words to just sort of be decoration

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around the pictures.

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We're actually trying to say something to tell the story so that you were

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able to find the text and be engaged by the text is very super encouraging

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for us because it means that we created something that's readable and worth

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reading. It is.

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And it's not just a coffee table book, I'll tell you that.

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It's not.

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It's like a book people need to read.

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So well done on making that happen.

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Like, you brought it all together.

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And the stories there there's so many stories.

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Amazing. You continue that quote that I read by saying, it comes from the

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food we eat, the music we hear, the stories we share.

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It comes from the elders in our families, the ones who teach us to act

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right, be quiet and pay attention.

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I know those elders and the ones with stories, recipes and lessons that we

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never forget.

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Whether an apartment, a condo or a house, a new builder generational home,

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the feeling is the same.

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Home is like soul indescribable.

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But you know it when you feel it.

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And you miss it when it's gone.

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Much of that feeling is carried in the unique aesthetic that defines African

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American design.

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And I think the soul of a home is the thing that often gets lost in design.

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I think it's really easy to like an interior design, to lose that feeling

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and that vibe that you convey in the book and throughout the book, through

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the storytelling of each of the featured homeowners, you feel their

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connections to the souls, past and present, in their families and

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traditions. And it's a connection that I think can only come from and

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inspire authenticity and design and really create a vibe that you describe

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and that's conveyed throughout the book.

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Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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I think that one of the things, I think, that we're always trying to get at,

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and Brian and I, you've known this for years.

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We like to tell stories.

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I mean, that really is what we do.

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We all tell great stories, too.

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We love the narrative, and we do it by writing, and we also do it by design,

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by designing spaces.

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For us, it's about less about, like, let's bring in pretty furniture, and

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more about, like, who are you? How do you want your home to feel? How do you

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want your home to sound? And it's also great talking with you as a gallery,

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because art plays a huge role in that vibe.

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If you don't have art in your home, sad to say, it's soulless.

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There's missing.

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There's something missing.

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And when we are talking to people, whether we're looking through the amazing

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homes in this book, where you see art all through these interiors, what

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we're really talking about is art that people have a connection to and that

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it helps them tell their own story in a better way.

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So when people walk in their home, those pieces are really helping describe

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bits of themselves.

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I think that what we love about art, especially from a design perspective,

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is from a narrative perspective.

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Rather, is it's where you can be blatant, the colors you're using, the

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furniture you bring in, the knickknacks, the things that are kind of

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scheduled, these are all things that can evoke.

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But art can say you can say what's important to you.

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You can say what you mean.

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And then, for us, a lot of the really amazing art moments in this are things

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that you wouldn't necessarily automatically think of.

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So we have one woman in North Carolina who actually built, with her own two

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hands, constructed a giant cotton tree.

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That was Shauna.

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Shauna. Yes.

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And so, Shauna, she did this to really reflect her family's relationship to

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cotton, which we all have that basic understanding of what the African

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American relationship to cotton historically has been.

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But for her family, that relationship is the same.

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But at a certain point, her family became landowners.

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They became cotton farmers, because that was what they knew coming out of

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slavery. And because of that, because of the success of that business, you

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know, everyone, all of the children and grandchildren of the family were

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able to go on, become highly educated and move on.

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So Cotton really became as much as it was part of a burdensome history, it

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was also became the foundation for a bright future for that family.

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And so this is part of why the book is constructed the way that it is and

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the way there's always so many things that we're trying to include and so

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many things we're trying to push.

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One of the things is the ways in which the black experience is understood in

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this country.

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Because part of the outcome of the lack of representation, of the constant

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fight for representation, is the black experience is always presented in

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these very small number of very limiting tropes.

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And what we're trying to do is actually show that there's a diversity of

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that experience.

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Even back in the points of history where we feel like everyone had the same

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experience, they didn't, right? Even a point like today where we go, well,

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black people are either this or that.

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Well, everyone in this book has a different experience.

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Everyone's coming from a different place.

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There are points of connection.

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And so we're using that larger narrative that we leave through the journey

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of home sections to kind of show where these pieces are, how they all fit.

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As part of the outbrows of this larger history, we're trying to put human

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faces on a historical story and we're also trying to give personal stories a

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historical context because there's a different level of understanding that

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comes when you can put those two together.

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And for this particular story, this missing character that we say the black

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family home is, that story has to be understood in context.

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But also, as we say in the book, from different angles.

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We have to get as close as the television story.

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We have to get far enough away to look at it as it's developed over a span

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of generations in order to really begin to understand what we're seeing.

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The other thing we try to push is just kind of the understanding of what

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design is.

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You know, we said before, design, we usually is pretty things arranged

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skillfully in a row.

250

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But through it, we can start to tell these bigger stories and wider stories

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and look at a lot of things as they've developed over time.

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Right now, I love it.

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And I think just going back to the art piece, oh, my goodness, you cannot

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miss the art in these homes in the book.

255

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I especially love how much figurative art is in the collections of these

256

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homeowners. All I could think of to say, I was like, representation matters.

257

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Artist representation matters just kept on coming up when I was looking at

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the collections.

259

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I also love seeing works by two of the nicest and most talented artists that

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the three of us have the joy and pleasure of knowing Jerome Lagarigue and Tim

261

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Okamura. I love those guys, and I was so happy to see their works on the

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walls of such beautiful, inspiring homes, including yours.

263

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That is cool.

264

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But from what I can see in these images, art is critical and is everywhere,

265

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which I really love.

266

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And it really does reflect that.

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The soul of the house that we keep on talking about, the soul of the home.

268

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We wanted to celebrate because growing up just culturally in African

269

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American homes, art is there.

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It's never been something that was like, oh, you have to be some sort of,

271

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like, big collector or anything like that.

272

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It's not treated necessarily as something that you're doing to either show

273

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success or maybe to have pieces that have value so that you can sort of have

274

00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:41,237

them fight for financially.

275

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Right. Trophy art.

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Yeah, they're just pieces that people have loved and enjoyed, and it passed

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down through generations.

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Right. And passed down.

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And so I think that that's something that we just grew up with.

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We thought about that, like, grandparents, people had art at home and

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parents art was in the home.

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And so reflecting seeing that reflected in the book was something that was

283

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just really special for us because it is such something that's such a big

284

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part of the culture.

285

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And, yes, we have our Team Ocamora piece in our library, and we love that

286

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piece. And it was like it was the perfect piece for us because it expressed

287

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something that we love.

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Powerful warrior, black woman.

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And I connect to say, I have a husband who is very much like, if we're going

290

00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:45,350

to have art in the house, I only want it to be women.

291

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Brian always been a big fan, so I'm like, oh, okay, fine.

292

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So that people are so perfect.

293

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It satisfied that this powerful woman, Brian, is a martial artist, and so

294

00:19:01,987 --> 00:19:07,732

her is the samurai also was just so cool as well.

295

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And so for us, was just something that we gravitated towards.

296

00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:17,317

And I think that's the amazing and beautiful thing about the art you'll find

297

00:19:17,365 --> 00:19:22,852

throughout these homes is people who have collected pieces that just add to

298

00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:23,752

their own story.

299

00:19:23,845 --> 00:19:30,067

I love Stacey Blake's home, the gallery wall she has in her son's room, and

300

00:19:30,190 --> 00:19:37,977

positive art for them that's it they wake up to and see in the day, and it's

301

00:19:38,007 --> 00:19:38,832

just positive.

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00:19:38,922 --> 00:19:45,427

And so I think that utilizing art to tell a one story and to also be able to

303

00:19:45,445 --> 00:19:49,957

be inspiring to yourself and to future generations is something that is

304

00:19:50,110 --> 00:19:53,137

beautifully done and woven in throughout the stories in the book.

305

00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,127

Yeah. And then you also have, like we said, that personal connection.

306

00:19:56,157 --> 00:19:59,917

So talking about the cotton tree, but then we also have Jason Reynolds, who

307

00:19:59,965 --> 00:20:04,252

part of the art in his home is a friend rejection letter that his

308

00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:08,600

grandmother received because she wasn't able to read and write.

309

00:20:08,962 --> 00:20:13,777

It was actually, I think, believe it was Custodial job, but because you can

310

00:20:13,795 --> 00:20:15,172

read and write, they wouldn't give it to him.

311

00:20:15,205 --> 00:20:19,177

For him as an author, that becomes a source of daily inspiration because he

312

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says, I work with work.

313

00:20:21,112 --> 00:20:27,397

And he has this whole amazing take on what he does and how he does it, and

314

00:20:27,505 --> 00:20:34,942

so much of it coming from this moment in his grandmother's life, and then

315

00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:39,952

just kind of seeing things like that, the ways in which even things like

316

00:20:39,970 --> 00:20:41,082

photography will get blended.

317

00:20:41,097 --> 00:20:45,132

We have a couple of homes where classic historical photographs are blended

318

00:20:45,147 --> 00:20:47,127

with family photographs and gallery walls.

319

00:20:47,157 --> 00:20:52,477

And so you have these amazing black and white Jazz Age photos, and then next

320

00:20:52,495 --> 00:20:54,137

to it, we're like, oh, that's my auntie.

321

00:20:56,062 --> 00:20:56,947

I love it.

322

00:20:57,055 --> 00:21:02,082

Move all that together and show them, face them all, because you're

323

00:21:02,097 --> 00:21:05,302

claiming, really, all of this is part of your experience, all of this is

324

00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,747

part of your heritage and part of the story of who you are and how you got

325

00:21:10,780 --> 00:21:11,825

into this space.

326

00:21:12,712 --> 00:21:17,017

And really, all of it points to as we talk about a little bit about what

327

00:21:17,215 --> 00:21:23,677

African American design is and how it's understood and how it feels and the

328

00:21:23,695 --> 00:21:27,787

kind of things that make it up and understanding those things, I can see

329

00:21:27,850 --> 00:21:32,947

where that vibe comes from and how it's constructed, and most of all, why

330

00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:35,242

it's so very much needed.

331

00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,467

Yes, I think it's really needed.

332

00:21:38,515 --> 00:21:46,072

I think the richness of the images and I have to say, it wouldn't be right

333

00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:50,062

to speak about the beautiful images in this book if we didn't mention

334

00:21:50,125 --> 00:21:55,297

Patrick Cline, the brilliant photographer, who I think he photographed pretty

335

00:21:55,330 --> 00:21:56,467

much everything in the book.

336

00:21:56,515 --> 00:21:58,207

Is that correct? Yes, everything.

337

00:21:58,360 --> 00:21:59,912

No two homes,

338

00:22:03,637 --> 00:22:09,067

but he photographed the interiors of these homes, and he oddly passed away

339

00:22:09,115 --> 00:22:09,672

this summer.

340

00:22:09,717 --> 00:22:13,302

So we're sending lots of love out to Patrick.

341

00:22:13,482 --> 00:22:17,647

I remember you mentioning him.

342

00:22:17,830 --> 00:22:18,847

Yeah, I remember.

343

00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,392

You introduced me to him years ago.

344

00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,772

And he's just the loveliest person, so I know he's going to be greatly

345

00:22:23,817 --> 00:22:31,342

missed. He was incredible to work with, and we missed him tremendously and

346

00:22:31,465 --> 00:22:36,500

feel like he's on this journey with us in some way.

347

00:22:37,387 --> 00:22:41,002

But he did shoot 14 of the homes in this book.

348

00:22:41,095 --> 00:22:46,732

And one of the reasons we worked with Patrick, we worked together for, I

349

00:22:46,735 --> 00:22:52,177

think we said over ten years, like 13 years in total, that we worked and

350

00:22:52,195 --> 00:22:58,702

collaborated on projects, is because Patrick was one of the few

351

00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:05,047

photographers that shot on film and in understanding film, understood how

352

00:23:05,155 --> 00:23:07,925

you really got to the soul of a space.

353

00:23:08,662 --> 00:23:14,752

And even though he shot this book digitally, his eye for what matters in a

354

00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:20,287

room is something that was no one else could do what he did.

355

00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:25,182

And we really wanted to be able to show the sole of these homes.

356

00:23:25,197 --> 00:23:26,542

And people ask all the time.

357

00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:31,475

A lot of times people do books the reality is you go into these spaces and

358

00:23:32,137 --> 00:23:36,052

basically, just like in magazines, you come in with all your own stuff and

359

00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:38,437

you style them the way that you want them to look.

360

00:23:38,575 --> 00:23:40,822

This is not any of these homes in this book.

361

00:23:40,855 --> 00:23:44,367

This is how these people live, and this is very authentic.

362

00:23:44,502 --> 00:23:49,447

And Patrick was able to go into their authentic space and capture how they

363

00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,522

live. It's one of the things we love most about Patrick because we've been

364

00:23:52,555 --> 00:23:56,827

on those shoots where you go into a space and everything is great, but you

365

00:23:56,845 --> 00:23:58,775

take it all out and you put it in everybody.

366

00:23:59,137 --> 00:24:02,137

What we love so much about Patrick is he shot what was there.

367

00:24:02,275 --> 00:24:05,047

Yes. And that was where the beauty came from.

368

00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:06,847

And that was so much of where the soul came from.

369

00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,482

That was always what we wanted, because it was always like, well, we don't

370

00:24:10,497 --> 00:24:13,852

want to make up what this person's home is.

371

00:24:13,870 --> 00:24:16,072

Just like, we don't want to make up what this person's story is.

372

00:24:16,105 --> 00:24:19,102

We want to show the beauty of what's there.

373

00:24:19,195 --> 00:24:23,397

And just, I guess, talking a little bit about the experience of creating

374

00:24:23,442 --> 00:24:27,997

this book, because it was written in a pandemic, where we're talking about

375

00:24:28,030 --> 00:24:33,357

it now in a pandemic, and one that actually did hit us personally.

376

00:24:33,447 --> 00:24:35,237

Gene and I both had COVID.

377

00:24:35,587 --> 00:24:40,647

My recovery has long covet, and so we weren't really able to travel patrick

378

00:24:40,767 --> 00:24:43,822

14 homes that he shot, he shot on his own.

379

00:24:43,855 --> 00:24:44,827

We weren't able to be there.

380

00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:46,550

We weren't able to travel with him.

381

00:24:48,037 --> 00:24:53,422

That was one of my questions, was how did COVID impact because I know your

382

00:24:53,455 --> 00:24:58,597

stories, I know Janine struggled with long COVID, so how did it impact the

383

00:24:58,630 --> 00:25:06,187

development and creation of this book? Yeah, I think that COVID definitely

384

00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:09,350

through a ranch into all of our lives.

385

00:25:12,412 --> 00:25:17,197

One of the things, because, like Brian said, I have long covet, and that is

386

00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:21,472

a journey of navigating a lot of different chronic illnesses that are

387

00:25:21,505 --> 00:25:26,602

complex and kind of come together, and you have to really take care of your

388

00:25:26,620 --> 00:25:31,972

body. Like, you just really can't there's no day where you can be lax at

389

00:25:32,005 --> 00:25:40,192

all. But we still knew we wanted to finish the book, no matter what was

390

00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,025

challenging about my health.

391

00:25:43,837 --> 00:25:48,742

And that was important because we felt like it was like this window, this

392

00:25:48,865 --> 00:25:53,677

moment. And even though the publisher was great, it was like, you can wait

393

00:25:53,695 --> 00:25:54,217

another year.

394

00:25:54,265 --> 00:25:56,947

It was just one of those things where I don't know if this moment will be

395

00:25:56,980 --> 00:25:59,782

here. The same in 2023 is in 2022.

396

00:25:59,785 --> 00:26:06,232

And when we started writing the book, really was during the beginnings of

397

00:26:06,235 --> 00:26:09,050

the Black Lives Matter movement in the United States.

398

00:26:10,162 --> 00:26:12,097

We were still in Brooklyn at the time.

399

00:26:12,130 --> 00:26:14,217

We had people marching down our street.

400

00:26:14,277 --> 00:26:18,037

We were from our window, cheering them on.

401

00:26:18,175 --> 00:26:25,972

And that being such a powerful moment of looking at systemic racism and that

402

00:26:26,005 --> 00:26:30,637

it became this global movement everywhere we saw in the UK and all over,

403

00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:35,667

people marching and talking more about systemic racism.

404

00:26:35,727 --> 00:26:39,875

It was like, this is why we need to tell this story right now.

405

00:26:42,337 --> 00:26:48,575

It's urgency of the moment, right? So we couldn't be distracted from it.

406

00:26:48,937 --> 00:26:53,067

And I'm so glad that we weren't detracted even with illness.

407

00:26:53,127 --> 00:26:54,637

We just feel like we're going to get this done.

408

00:26:54,700 --> 00:27:00,847

And like Brian said, we asked Patrick, like, you're going to go to all these

409

00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,012

different places.

410

00:27:02,437 --> 00:27:03,627

He went to Hawaii.

411

00:27:03,657 --> 00:27:05,347

His very first shoot was really cool.

412

00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:12,202

To Don Tiegel's house in Hawaii, which we were oh, my God, be there for that

413

00:27:12,220 --> 00:27:15,022

one. What a cool shoot that must have been.

414

00:27:15,130 --> 00:27:17,675

Oh, my God, I'm so sorry I missed that one.

415

00:27:18,637 --> 00:27:20,872

We were like, we're on the phone with them.

416

00:27:20,905 --> 00:27:22,087

We're like, oh, we can't go.

417

00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:27,187

But he was the only person we knew that could go into these homes, that

418

00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:30,897

could engage with the people, make them feel safe and comfortable.

419

00:27:30,942 --> 00:27:35,227

Because we were going into people's homes before I think there were even we

420

00:27:35,245 --> 00:27:35,982

did have vaccines.

421

00:27:35,997 --> 00:27:36,507

We had vaccines.

422

00:27:36,522 --> 00:27:38,462

So he had just got vaccinated.

423

00:27:39,337 --> 00:27:45,472

But we wanted everyone to feel completely comfortable and just to know, like

424

00:27:45,505 --> 00:27:46,700

to trust him.

425

00:27:47,062 --> 00:27:47,887

And they did.

426

00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:54,350

Everyone was so open to him and he got to know the families and he ended up

427

00:27:55,387 --> 00:27:57,082

he came out with friends in every house.

428

00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,117

Yeah. That is brilliant.

429

00:28:00,177 --> 00:28:02,047

And I love that about him.

430

00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,200

He's such an engaging, warm person and

431

00:28:09,337 --> 00:28:15,247

I can't even believe that we don't get to experience his work in the world

432

00:28:15,355 --> 00:28:17,122

beyond this.

433

00:28:17,155 --> 00:28:23,842

Was this one of his last big projects? This was this was his last big

434

00:28:23,890 --> 00:28:31,552

project. And thankfully, before he passed, he actually was able to edit all

435

00:28:31,570 --> 00:28:32,337

of the imagery.

436

00:28:32,412 --> 00:28:37,627

So not only was this all of the images that he took, but with his hand

437

00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:44,122

editing them in terms of the images, they're the vision that we all were

438

00:28:44,155 --> 00:28:45,817

hoping that this can be.

439

00:28:45,865 --> 00:28:53,292

So we feel like this is a wonderful celebration of him too, and incredible

440

00:28:53,352 --> 00:28:58,582

work that he did for so many years, showcasing some of the most beautiful

441

00:28:58,660 --> 00:29:01,025

spaces you've ever seen.

442

00:29:01,762 --> 00:29:10,100

Brilliant. What a lasting legacy for him, for his work to carry on.

443

00:29:10,462 --> 00:29:11,437

Really cool.

444

00:29:11,575 --> 00:29:18,177

So there were so many things that I loved about this book when I was reading

445

00:29:18,207 --> 00:29:23,437

through it, but I think the thing that resonated most was the element of

446

00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,487

safety home brings to black Americans.

447

00:29:26,637 --> 00:29:28,657

So I'm just going to read a quote from the book.

448

00:29:28,735 --> 00:29:34,417

You say, when asked what their homes mean to them, safety was the first

449

00:29:34,465 --> 00:29:37,012

response of every homeowner in this book.

450

00:29:37,150 --> 00:29:40,987

Life in America is not safe for black people and never has been.

451

00:29:41,125 --> 00:29:45,192

While the sense of safety our homes provide is not the same as physical

452

00:29:45,252 --> 00:29:49,927

security, home is arrested from the psychological pressures of the outside

453

00:29:50,020 --> 00:29:54,217

world. For that reason, black homes are filled with comfortable things and

454

00:29:54,265 --> 00:29:57,587

things that comfort, end quote.

455

00:29:58,012 --> 00:30:01,822

So can you speak a bit about this and the importance of home ownership and

456

00:30:01,855 --> 00:30:06,007

creating safe personal space in the black community, especially now, these

457

00:30:06,085 --> 00:30:11,225

crazy days time that we're living in? Yeah, absolutely.

458

00:30:12,937 --> 00:30:14,662

It's exactly as it says.

459

00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,622

Life in America is not safe for black people and never has.

460

00:30:18,730 --> 00:30:24,297

And I think looking at it now, we see, like, the Brianna Taylors, George

461

00:30:24,342 --> 00:30:29,722

Floyds, and knowing that those are two of the most prominent, not even any

462

00:30:29,755 --> 00:30:34,850

more the most recent names in a list that continues to be added to.

463

00:30:35,812 --> 00:30:39,652

And part of the reason why it's important for us to have the level of

464

00:30:39,670 --> 00:30:42,172

historical context in this book that we do.

465

00:30:42,205 --> 00:30:46,762

I mean, it starts at the point of emancipation and reconstruction and

466

00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:52,822

follows all the way through to the onset of October 19 is to be able to

467

00:30:53,005 --> 00:30:57,697

clearly make the point that you're seeing the same cycles repeat themselves

468

00:30:57,805 --> 00:30:58,807

over and over again.

469

00:30:58,885 --> 00:31:04,092

So the violence that you see African Americans, black Americans are subject

470

00:31:04,152 --> 00:31:09,172

to are vulnerable to on a daily basis is no different now than it was during

471

00:31:09,205 --> 00:31:17,332

a Tulsa massacre or before that, prior to the end of the Civil War, or even

472

00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:18,737

during Jim Crow.

473

00:31:19,537 --> 00:31:24,417

The idea, essentially, that as black people, we are not at home in America

474

00:31:24,552 --> 00:31:26,427

is one that's constantly being reiterated.

475

00:31:26,457 --> 00:31:29,497

And it's part of the reason why so little attention, so little

476

00:31:29,530 --> 00:31:33,202

representation is given to the black family home, because the idea is

477

00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:35,272

essentially that you are not at home here.

478

00:31:35,305 --> 00:31:38,197

You can't be at home here, but we are at home here.

479

00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:38,962

This is our home.

480

00:31:39,025 --> 00:31:43,852

And part of telling the story in this historical context is to show how the

481

00:31:43,870 --> 00:31:47,497

journey to home for African Americans and the peaks and valleys in that

482

00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:51,187

story line up with some of the most pivotal moments in American history.

483

00:31:51,325 --> 00:31:54,532

So it's not a question of black history.

484

00:31:54,610 --> 00:31:56,422

It's almost not even a question of American history.

485

00:31:56,455 --> 00:32:00,367

It's just a question of history and being able to weave those things

486

00:32:00,415 --> 00:32:05,677

together and also really take a look at the reasons why it's missing in the

487

00:32:05,695 --> 00:32:10,897

first place, what are the motivations for its omission and what are the

488

00:32:10,930 --> 00:32:12,942

outcomes of its absence.

489

00:32:13,077 --> 00:32:16,852

And we do get a chance to take a look at some of those and the ways in

490

00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:22,027

which, you know, design has to be understood as a cultural artifact that

491

00:32:22,045 --> 00:32:31,992

plays into this entire society as it works right, because of that feeling.

492

00:32:32,052 --> 00:32:39,322

And it's a direct catalyst for the way that black holes are designed, for

493

00:32:39,355 --> 00:32:43,912

the feelings that they work to evoke and safety being paramount among those.

494

00:32:43,975 --> 00:32:48,927

Because at home, once you get home, is a breath.

495

00:32:49,107 --> 00:32:56,375

I mean, because we say this all the time when someone is killed, like

496

00:32:56,812 --> 00:33:01,617

Brownie Taylor, George Floyd, Mike Brown, Trayvon Martin, I'm a Duty aloe.

497

00:33:01,677 --> 00:33:06,462

How far back you want to go? It's never about the person who's killed.

498

00:33:06,612 --> 00:33:10,282

It's always about it's about everyone who's left.

499

00:33:10,435 --> 00:33:11,322

You know, it's.

500

00:33:11,367 --> 00:33:18,247

For black people, for African Americans to know that it could be any of us

501

00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,000

at any time and for any reason or no reason at all.

502

00:33:24,412 --> 00:33:31,617

We see traffic stops absolutely lethal statistically to African Americans

503

00:33:31,752 --> 00:33:38,152

because of police violence and other forms of violence with a monobari had

504

00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:41,300

nothing to do with the police, but he was murdered as well.

505

00:33:43,087 --> 00:33:46,482

So because of that, every time you step out your door, you know that there's

506

00:33:46,497 --> 00:33:50,842

a question as to whether or not you'll see that during that home again.

507

00:33:50,890 --> 00:33:53,772

So we make it there as a breath.

508

00:33:53,967 --> 00:34:00,067

It was interesting one I would say, like all of these homeowners were so

509

00:34:00,265 --> 00:34:04,047

generous and open with us about their stories.

510

00:34:04,242 --> 00:34:05,407

We had a list of questions.

511

00:34:05,485 --> 00:34:09,547

We really didn't know where the conversation was going to go, but they all

512

00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:14,422

told us so much about their family histories and the first homes they

513

00:34:14,455 --> 00:34:18,402

remembered and their homes now and some of their struggles.

514

00:34:18,582 --> 00:34:22,582

And when we asked at the end of each interview, we would say, what does a

515

00:34:22,585 --> 00:34:26,472

black family home mean to you? And every one of them answered, safety.

516

00:34:26,592 --> 00:34:30,050

And that was really interesting because that's what it means for us too.

517

00:34:30,712 --> 00:34:38,837

And like Brian said, I think that in America there is an incredible weight

518

00:34:39,262 --> 00:34:46,342

to being black and you don't necessarily think about it, you just carry it

519

00:34:46,540 --> 00:34:48,112

every single day.

520

00:34:48,250 --> 00:34:52,162

And so when we moved into this house where we're outside of New York City

521

00:34:52,225 --> 00:34:56,227

now, upstate, it was really important to me.

522

00:34:56,245 --> 00:34:59,257

I was saying to Brian, like, I want this house to be super black.

523

00:34:59,335 --> 00:35:06,247

I want people to know that black people live here when they come in, that

524

00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,837

they're like, there's art, there's representation of blackness everywhere,

525

00:35:09,912 --> 00:35:15,327

which is basically every house we live in feeling.

526

00:35:15,432 --> 00:35:21,592

And I also wanted that feeling of that hug because I was really nervous of

527

00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:22,357

moving outside.

528

00:35:22,435 --> 00:35:30,787

The city in New York is interesting in that New York had some of the most

529

00:35:30,850 --> 00:35:33,052

slave ports in the United States.

530

00:35:33,145 --> 00:35:36,800

A lot of people don't realize that slavery was huge here.

531

00:35:37,612 --> 00:35:42,022

And even though people think, oh, it's just the south, like no, actually, so

532

00:35:42,055 --> 00:35:46,512

there are lots of black people all throughout New York, all throughout

533

00:35:46,587 --> 00:35:50,337

upstairs. And those ports, they came from the UK.

534

00:35:50,487 --> 00:35:53,422

The ships came from the UK to New York.

535

00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:55,850

Yes, exactly.

536

00:35:56,437 --> 00:36:02,947

So there actually is a big black population here and that helped us feel

537

00:36:02,980 --> 00:36:07,550

safe and that we were like seeing other people that look like us, but also

538

00:36:08,362 --> 00:36:15,232

just needing to feel like you've arrested even just for a moment from all of

539

00:36:15,235 --> 00:36:15,792

the violence.

540

00:36:15,852 --> 00:36:22,192

But like Brian said, knowing that even still, like Skip Gates, when the

541

00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:26,457

police officer, when his neighbor called the police on him, when he walked

542

00:36:26,472 --> 00:36:30,472

into his own house and he lived in for several years and the neighbor was

543

00:36:30,505 --> 00:36:32,962

like, I don't know that guy, and it was kind of crazy.

544

00:36:33,025 --> 00:36:38,692

And the police came to his house, we all know as black people that safety is

545

00:36:38,740 --> 00:36:46,822

never 100%, that anytime violence, racism can enter your space.

546

00:36:46,930 --> 00:36:54,607

But crafting space in a way that is comforting is a lot of ways.

547

00:36:54,685 --> 00:36:56,387

It's just part of survival.

548

00:36:57,487 --> 00:37:07,627

In a situation where you're constantly survival, your survival is often a

549

00:37:07,645 --> 00:37:11,797

question. And so that becomes one of the ways in which the world of an

550

00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:15,650

African American is very different than the world of a white American.

551

00:37:16,012 --> 00:37:20,752

Whether you're occupied in the same space, in some cases, even regardless of

552

00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:27,352

how close you are, the world is a very good place for both because, as you

553

00:37:27,370 --> 00:37:33,427

said, that sense of safety is not the same as physical security, right? But

554

00:37:33,445 --> 00:37:40,057

it also looking at, for us, again, pushing our understanding of what design

555

00:37:40,135 --> 00:37:46,777

is and looking at it not as a skill, a pastime, an occupation, or even an

556

00:37:46,795 --> 00:37:51,322

industry, but looking at it as a cultural artifact and seeing how it can be

557

00:37:51,355 --> 00:37:54,350

read back into the culture that creates it.

558

00:37:55,312 --> 00:37:59,737

You start to realize as we kind of go through in the book that black design

559

00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:05,122

as it exists is a response to a number of needs that American history has

560

00:38:05,155 --> 00:38:07,325

crafted for black people in this country.

561

00:38:07,687 --> 00:38:10,852

And it's important to say in this country because when we talk about the

562

00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:17,452

need for safety, for representation, for control, for celebration, for

563

00:38:17,470 --> 00:38:22,072

things like that, the need for those things, the need to express those

564

00:38:22,105 --> 00:38:26,962

things in your home where you have that level of control is very different

565

00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:27,787

in the US.

566

00:38:27,850 --> 00:38:32,527

Than it would be in a nation that was all black so someplace in the

567

00:38:32,545 --> 00:38:35,012

Caribbean or some place on the African continent.

568

00:38:35,662 --> 00:38:39,892

So the need for representation in that way would be a very different thing.

569

00:38:40,015 --> 00:38:45,117

But for us here, it becomes a very important thing because that's a constant

570

00:38:45,177 --> 00:38:48,462

fight outside of safety is a constant struggle.

571

00:38:48,612 --> 00:38:52,582

Am I safe? Here is something that's always on your mind, even if it's in the

572

00:38:52,585 --> 00:38:57,427

back of your mind, but also, where am I seeing? How am I seen? How am I

573

00:38:57,445 --> 00:39:02,902

represented? We look at even how black homes have been represented, whether

574

00:39:02,995 --> 00:39:08,422

it's the homes of the celebrity athletes, actors, musicians, people who show

575

00:39:08,455 --> 00:39:14,127

up on TV, and then the idea that everyone else just lives in public housing.

576

00:39:14,307 --> 00:39:17,902

And then everyone's idea of public housing probably comes from an episode of

577

00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,427

Good Times that they saw all rerun of with no idea of what may exist in

578

00:39:24,445 --> 00:39:29,272

between. One of the things that we did want to show with this book is that

579

00:39:29,455 --> 00:39:36,052

it's looking at African American design or black design America, however you

580

00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:41,652

want to term it, it's not about the ways in which we would traditionally

581

00:39:41,682 --> 00:39:43,317

define the design style.

582

00:39:43,452 --> 00:39:46,702

It doesn't come down to, here are the colors you use.

583

00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:49,162

Here's the era of furniture that you use.

584

00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:51,487

Here are the stores you can get it from.

585

00:39:51,625 --> 00:39:55,025

The design in these homes are wildly different.

586

00:39:55,462 --> 00:40:02,817

We have everything from small just amazing New York apartments to giant,

587

00:40:02,877 --> 00:40:05,367

sprawling 60 plus acre ranches.

588

00:40:05,502 --> 00:40:08,632

And they're all designed in very, very different ways.

589

00:40:08,785 --> 00:40:14,677

But it's that feeling that vibe is the thing that connects them and to

590

00:40:14,695 --> 00:40:18,952

understand how it's able to be expressed in so many different ways and why

591

00:40:18,970 --> 00:40:22,557

it continues to be a connection, regardless of whether you're in North

592

00:40:22,572 --> 00:40:28,842

Carolina, New York, San Diego, wherever you may be, or Hawaii or Germany.

593

00:40:28,902 --> 00:40:31,452

We even have one home live in Germany.

594

00:40:31,632 --> 00:40:36,892

It's really a matter of understanding the needs that inspire that design

595

00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:40,175

style and how that design style speaks to those needs.

596

00:40:40,837 --> 00:40:47,312

I think that also what comes out is the celebration of the black hole.

597

00:40:48,712 --> 00:40:58,522

I think from that standpoint of needing to feel safe, it also seems that the

598

00:40:58,555 --> 00:41:06,950

need to celebrate your own culture and in the media, it's just horrible what

599

00:41:08,587 --> 00:41:14,097

the African American community goes through and the way that you're

600

00:41:14,142 --> 00:41:21,592

perceived or talked about in the news or the stories that come up that are

601

00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,062

just so heartbreaking.

602

00:41:24,862 --> 00:41:28,700

Teens getting shot for just walking down the street with a hoodie on.

603

00:41:29,137 --> 00:41:34,587

This is a place you need to come and just feel like you can celebrate

604

00:41:34,662 --> 00:41:37,192

yourself and where you come from.

605

00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:38,497

And that really comes through.

606

00:41:38,530 --> 00:41:41,167

I think that celebratory vibe comes through.

607

00:41:41,365 --> 00:41:42,262

Well, thank you.

608

00:41:42,325 --> 00:41:45,547

And I think our publisher will be so happy to hear that.

609

00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:52,972

I think there's a lot of conversations about how do we write a book that is

610

00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:58,732

inspirational design, tells a historical narrative, tells these individual

611

00:41:58,885 --> 00:42:00,575

stories as well.

612

00:42:00,937 --> 00:42:02,772

But that is still celebratory.

613

00:42:02,817 --> 00:42:07,402

And I think that that was something that we had to kind of really talk to

614

00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:13,447

the publisher about, is that the black experience in America is joy and

615

00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:19,677

pain. And we have to present all of that to really sort of show the fullness

616

00:42:19,782 --> 00:42:21,247

of our experience.

617

00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:26,542

And so we can't leave the painful pieces out because we've gone through

618

00:42:26,590 --> 00:42:29,987

that. And to me, it shows incredible resilience.

619

00:42:30,562 --> 00:42:37,372

The painful pieces are also why we celebrate, because we are continuing to

620

00:42:37,405 --> 00:42:41,877

still move forward for equality globally.

621

00:42:41,982 --> 00:42:46,857

And so that celebration, we got to celebrate.

622

00:42:46,947 --> 00:42:51,427

We have to celebrate every stride that we have made.

623

00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,822

And for so many of these homeowners, it is a celebration for them to buying

624

00:42:57,867 --> 00:43:04,552

a house, being able to have a place where their family has a future, where

625

00:43:04,570 --> 00:43:09,052

they can raise their children, hopefully have something as an heirloom that

626

00:43:09,070 --> 00:43:10,237

they can leave to them.

627

00:43:10,300 --> 00:43:13,837

And then for some people, they didn't own their house, but they had these

628

00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:20,022

incredible apartments and spaces that were filled with heirlooms and pieces

629

00:43:20,067 --> 00:43:24,050

that were passed down and that their mother gave, grandparents gave.

630

00:43:24,712 --> 00:43:31,972

And that is is part of that celebrating those joyful things and knowing that

631

00:43:32,005 --> 00:43:35,362

we've achieved so much and that we can still go on to achieve more.

632

00:43:35,425 --> 00:43:40,702

Yeah, there's so much joy every homeowner that we talk to, even for

633

00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:45,372

ourselves, there's so much enjoyment, there's so much pleasure.

634

00:43:45,417 --> 00:43:47,525

There's so much warmth and love.

635

00:43:47,887 --> 00:43:55,882

People who raised families and so many children, these places they love, but

636

00:43:55,885 --> 00:43:59,167

they live around the corner from their mom, so they always have family

637

00:43:59,215 --> 00:44:02,287

nearby. And that's what the black family home is.

638

00:44:02,350 --> 00:44:03,267

It is joy.

639

00:44:03,327 --> 00:44:09,050

But for us, we felt the responsibility was to show joy in context because

640

00:44:09,637 --> 00:44:13,167

the way that again, we start talking about these tropes and representation

641

00:44:13,227 --> 00:44:14,937

and so it's always divided.

642

00:44:15,012 --> 00:44:19,672

We're either talking about black joy, in which case it's all joy 100%, just

643

00:44:19,705 --> 00:44:24,057

people dancing, or we're talking about black suffering, in which case it's

644

00:44:24,147 --> 00:44:29,107

100% suffering and degradation and misery and that's it.

645

00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:33,997

And we felt like it was such an important thing to be able to actually show

646

00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:38,037

the two together, to show because you can't see the relationship, you can't

647

00:44:38,112 --> 00:44:43,672

see how like they are both at once part of the black experience in this

648

00:44:43,705 --> 00:44:50,017

country. And so to divide them, to look at one without the other is half

649

00:44:50,065 --> 00:44:54,502

measure. And we certainly want to write something that people could point to

650

00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,152

and say, look, here's 16 black people with great houses, so everything is

651

00:44:59,170 --> 00:45:02,797

fine because that's very clearly not the case.

652

00:45:02,830 --> 00:45:07,147

And so knowing the outset of this book, being inspired in part to write this

653

00:45:07,180 --> 00:45:11,742

book by the understanding that African American home ownership has dropped

654

00:45:11,802 --> 00:45:16,672

to levels not seen since before the signing of the Fair Housing Act and this

655

00:45:16,705 --> 00:45:22,207

is before COVID So this is just coming out of the Great Recession in the

656

00:45:22,210 --> 00:45:26,375

early two thousand s and then Kofi hit.

657

00:45:26,887 --> 00:45:30,952

Now we're seeing it's increased impact in what's happening.

658

00:45:31,045 --> 00:45:35,167

So we absolutely couldn't write a book that just said, hey, black people

659

00:45:35,215 --> 00:45:36,725

have houses, this is great.

660

00:45:37,087 --> 00:45:41,600

We had to write something that would talk about the rest of the story and

661

00:45:42,187 --> 00:45:47,337

try to inspire us to kind of continue to see this journey is ongoing.

662

00:45:47,487 --> 00:45:51,350

Yeah, I really love the history and background that you share in the book

663

00:45:51,787 --> 00:45:57,292

sections about the African American experience of home that began long

664

00:45:57,340 --> 00:46:02,692

before Emancipation, the Great Migration and the journey home from the Great

665

00:46:02,740 --> 00:46:04,002

Depression to the Great Recession.

666

00:46:04,032 --> 00:46:08,767

All of those segments that you put into the book historical background was

667

00:46:08,815 --> 00:46:13,972

brilliant. And what came across is that for the black home in particular,

668

00:46:14,155 --> 00:46:17,662

history cannot be separated from design and the struggle to find home

669

00:46:17,725 --> 00:46:21,397

persists. So I'm going to read another quote if you don't mind.

670

00:46:21,505 --> 00:46:25,175

You say like every part of culture, design is shaped by history.

671

00:46:25,537 --> 00:46:29,277

The shape of American history has created a set of needs for African

672

00:46:29,307 --> 00:46:33,367

Americans which are reflected in our homes much as we have with food, music

673

00:46:33,415 --> 00:46:33,867

and dance.

674

00:46:33,927 --> 00:46:37,612

African Americans have used design as a way of meeting those needs.

675

00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:42,367

African American design is uniquely experiential in that it isn't defined by

676

00:46:42,415 --> 00:46:44,602

look as much as it is by feel.

677

00:46:44,770 --> 00:46:47,592

There are no defined color palettes or furniture styles.

678

00:46:47,652 --> 00:46:51,127

Instead, it uses a diverse array of approaches to craft environments that

679

00:46:51,145 --> 00:46:55,937

evoke feelings such as safety, control, visibility, celebration and memory.

680

00:46:56,512 --> 00:46:59,647

Each of these plays an important role in the feeling of home.

681

00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,412

That these spaces convey.

682

00:47:01,912 --> 00:47:07,297

Control as an element of African American design is about the ease with

683

00:47:07,330 --> 00:47:09,292

which our creative decisions are made.

684

00:47:09,415 --> 00:47:13,567

Home offers a space that doesn't have to be carved out, contended for or

685

00:47:13,690 --> 00:47:15,217

defended, wants one.

686

00:47:15,340 --> 00:47:19,852

It doesn't ask us to explain ourselves, speak for our race, ignore its

687

00:47:19,945 --> 00:47:24,962

microaggressions, or be on call for teachable moments.

688

00:47:25,462 --> 00:47:27,907

One never asks to touch your home.

689

00:47:28,060 --> 00:47:31,475

That was a really powerful moment when I was reading it.

690

00:47:31,912 --> 00:47:34,567

You can continue to stay in place of all that.

691

00:47:34,765 --> 00:47:39,587

Home gives us the control we need to express and represent ourselves freely.

692

00:47:40,837 --> 00:47:47,722

I mean, I think we just touched on a lot of that, obviously, but then I was

693

00:47:47,755 --> 00:47:48,672

even more moved.

694

00:47:48,717 --> 00:47:54,672

So you say that the black family home is missing character and is a missing

695

00:47:54,717 --> 00:47:58,552

character in American history, is part of the work this country has been

696

00:47:58,570 --> 00:48:03,297

doing since 1619 to send a very clear and direct message that African

697

00:48:03,342 --> 00:48:08,152

Americans and all black people are not at home in America, but this is our

698

00:48:08,170 --> 00:48:12,892

home. And against all the headwinds of legal oppression, social violence and

699

00:48:12,940 --> 00:48:17,782

economic marginalization, black people have and will continue to make

700

00:48:17,860 --> 00:48:22,582

ourselves at home in the country that many of our ancestors helped to build

701

00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:26,077

and in which we all have a vested interest.

702

00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:30,212

And in our continuing story, there is value for all Americans.

703

00:48:31,012 --> 00:48:35,900

That I mean, between those two.

704

00:48:36,412 --> 00:48:39,922

The first quote was earlier on in the book and the introduction, and then

705

00:48:39,955 --> 00:48:46,692

that last bit was later on in one of those highlighted historical segments

706

00:48:46,752 --> 00:48:48,307

that you added into the book.

707

00:48:48,385 --> 00:48:51,500

And I think

708

00:48:55,312 --> 00:48:56,825

that's where it got me.

709

00:48:57,787 --> 00:49:06,882

I mean, seeing the family homes and color and the warmth, that was powerful.

710

00:49:06,972 --> 00:49:12,252

But when you start thinking about these deeper topics of, you know, you're

711

00:49:12,282 --> 00:49:15,712

not welcome in your own country, that is not right.

712

00:49:15,775 --> 00:49:21,950

And that is so important in this story of design.

713

00:49:23,137 --> 00:49:27,200

So I think it's really important to include that background in the book.

714

00:49:27,712 --> 00:49:31,637

I think that I'm going to say, this man is so brilliant.

715

00:49:35,812 --> 00:49:42,362

Brian is so good at taking really complex ideas.

716

00:49:42,787 --> 00:49:48,352

And then just these statements, I was like, Both those things are at.

717

00:49:48,370 --> 00:49:49,462

That was all him.

718

00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:55,477

I'm there, like, I can curate the homes and talk about the design, and I'm a

719

00:49:55,495 --> 00:49:56,532

good editor.

720

00:49:56,697 --> 00:50:00,607

I will go through and, you know, okay, we've got to like, we can't we have

721

00:50:00,610 --> 00:50:04,867

to cut these words out just to give only so many words, so many pages with

722

00:50:04,915 --> 00:50:11,375

Brian wordy, right? Yeah.

723

00:50:12,262 --> 00:50:19,737

But then how he gets across these really complex ideas.

724

00:50:19,887 --> 00:50:21,875

I always love that.

725

00:50:23,137 --> 00:50:28,327

I'll give you a chance, but I wanted to just say that when we started this

726

00:50:28,345 --> 00:50:33,892

book, I was like, we should do this book that's going to be about house

727

00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:36,662

tours of black homes.

728

00:50:37,012 --> 00:50:40,102

And honestly, at first he was like, I don't really see why we need to do

729

00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,692

that. Why is this necessary? This doesn't seem like a book that really needs

730

00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:47,525

to be something that we need to do.

731

00:50:47,887 --> 00:50:53,162

And it started for me because I was reading an article.

732

00:50:53,512 --> 00:50:54,727

I don't remember where it was.

733

00:50:54,745 --> 00:51:00,552

It was about June 10, and they were talking about when emancipation occurred

734

00:51:00,582 --> 00:51:06,200

in the United States and how black people were just let.

735

00:51:06,637 --> 00:51:10,177

The government was like, you cannot, you know, keep people enslaved any

736

00:51:10,195 --> 00:51:15,052

longer. So the plantations had to release people.

737

00:51:15,145 --> 00:51:21,172

And when the plantations did that, the plantation owners did that, they were

738

00:51:21,205 --> 00:51:25,872

done. So people were on the streets.

739

00:51:25,992 --> 00:51:33,792

And for many years, black people died at enormous numbers from disease, lack

740

00:51:33,852 --> 00:51:34,702

of care.

741

00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:39,097

People would just be dead on the streets, and people would walk by and walk

742

00:51:39,130 --> 00:51:39,897

past their bodies.

743

00:51:39,942 --> 00:51:47,227

And it was something that it stuck with me so much, I was like, I can't even

744

00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,222

understand what that could be like.

745

00:51:49,405 --> 00:51:55,372

And it made me think like, this is where the story of home begins for my

746

00:51:55,405 --> 00:52:00,817

ancestors, and taking that to Brian and saying, okay, we're going to do

747

00:52:00,865 --> 00:52:06,667

something with these house tours, but we need to tell that story.

748

00:52:06,865 --> 00:52:12,517

And he brilliantly tells that story with the journey home.

749

00:52:12,715 --> 00:52:15,875

Those historical chapters that are in the book.

750

00:52:18,787 --> 00:52:20,837

This also might be a little wordy.

751

00:52:23,962 --> 00:52:25,400

It'll be worth it.

752

00:52:26,812 --> 00:52:32,602

First, I do want to say something about Jeanine also as an editor, because I

753

00:52:32,620 --> 00:52:33,742

love the book, and I love it.

754

00:52:33,790 --> 00:52:35,000

It's final form.

755

00:52:35,662 --> 00:52:38,750

What I originally wrote was about twice as long.

756

00:52:41,062 --> 00:52:42,022

I believe that now.

757

00:52:42,055 --> 00:52:42,412

I do.

758

00:52:42,475 --> 00:52:43,475

For so long.

759

00:52:44,737 --> 00:52:47,842

She got a good 30, 40,000.

760

00:52:47,890 --> 00:52:51,127

Because when I'm writing, I'm like I was like, there's an idea.

761

00:52:51,295 --> 00:52:52,792

You have to get the idea across.

762

00:52:52,915 --> 00:52:57,592

Because what I love about doing books is that to me, it's like, this is one

763

00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:03,697

thought. It's the ability to take one thought and follow it through as

764

00:53:03,730 --> 00:53:06,652

completely as you possibly can, but it's still just the one idea.

765

00:53:06,820 --> 00:53:12,102

And so when she did first bring it to me, the idea of just doing this coffee

766

00:53:12,132 --> 00:53:16,257

table book, it was about black family home house tours.

767

00:53:16,347 --> 00:53:19,087

I never want to write something that's just a design book.

768

00:53:19,225 --> 00:53:26,075

So when we came on this idea of the journey to home, and what does that mean

769

00:53:27,337 --> 00:53:31,327

across centuries? But then what does it also mean for the individual? So now

770

00:53:31,345 --> 00:53:33,802

we're not just walking through someone's house going, okay, well, here's a

771

00:53:33,820 --> 00:53:36,852

chair, here's a table, here's a nice bookshelf.

772

00:53:36,882 --> 00:53:43,777

We're saying, what is the whole story of how you from not only you, but your

773

00:53:43,795 --> 00:53:47,197

parents? Here the first question we ask everybody is what's the first home

774

00:53:47,230 --> 00:53:52,497

you remember? Because your story of home, your understanding of home, begins

775

00:53:52,542 --> 00:53:54,372

with that first home that you recall.

776

00:53:54,417 --> 00:53:57,802

And it builds and it grows with every home that you have after that.

777

00:53:57,895 --> 00:54:03,427

And so being able to trace that story and then trace it back beyond even the

778

00:54:03,445 --> 00:54:06,847

person that we're talking to and find those connection points to these

779

00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,325

larger stories is how it started to come together.

780

00:54:11,362 --> 00:54:16,177

But I love the two quotes that you just read, because I do feel like they

781

00:54:16,270 --> 00:54:16,792

fit together.

782

00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,787

They book in so well.

783

00:54:18,925 --> 00:54:22,987

I'm so happy that you brought up specifically in that list of

784

00:54:23,050 --> 00:54:29,677

characteristics, control, because as much as we talk about safety, like,

785

00:54:29,695 --> 00:54:36,427

that idea of control of freedom can't really be stated, because wherever we

786

00:54:36,445 --> 00:54:40,882

are as black people outside of our homes, there's always the question, what

787

00:54:40,885 --> 00:54:45,877

are you doing here? Why are you here? Right? And it doesn't matter where you

788

00:54:45,895 --> 00:54:48,397

are. You could be in a museum again, we saw a stupid case.

789

00:54:48,430 --> 00:54:51,247

You could be in your own home, and people are still asking, Why are you

790

00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,747

here? What right do you have? So let's just say we know.

791

00:54:55,780 --> 00:54:59,002

We look back in history, we have this idea of freedom papers, and then we

792

00:54:59,020 --> 00:54:59,842

talk in the book.

793

00:54:59,965 --> 00:55:06,427

After emancipation and as the prison industry came to take over the role of

794

00:55:06,445 --> 00:55:11,562

slavery for black people in America, it became about employment papers.

795

00:55:11,712 --> 00:55:12,442

You have a job.

796

00:55:12,490 --> 00:55:17,497

If you didn't have a job, that was illegal, and you could be arrested for

797

00:55:17,605 --> 00:55:20,677

loitering, which I didn't realize until I read this.

798

00:55:20,770 --> 00:55:25,042

And I was like, Whoa, that I did not know.

799

00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:28,477

Yeah. And then once you were arrested, you could be leased out.

800

00:55:28,495 --> 00:55:30,457

And we still do prisoner leasing today.

801

00:55:30,535 --> 00:55:37,012

So that idea of being able to just to have a space where you can just

802

00:55:37,075 --> 00:55:42,252

create, right? A lot of the amazing things that we see in these, and tears

803

00:55:42,282 --> 00:55:46,447

come out of the simple fact that home was where these people were able to be

804

00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:47,677

as creative as they wanted to be.

805

00:55:47,695 --> 00:55:51,052

I mean, if you look at homes like Paulson Pats, The Amazing Artists, or you

806

00:55:51,070 --> 00:55:55,057

look at, like, John Goodman, his home, it was like, here, I can do whatever

807

00:55:55,135 --> 00:55:57,742

I want, and nobody asks me.

808

00:55:57,790 --> 00:55:59,332

I don't have to explain it to anybody.

809

00:55:59,410 --> 00:56:02,017

And if anybody does ask me, I tell it's my home.

810

00:56:02,140 --> 00:56:03,592

I do what I like here.

811

00:56:03,715 --> 00:56:05,617

And that is such a rare thing.

812

00:56:05,665 --> 00:56:08,722

As we say, you don't have to fight for you don't have to carve it out.

813

00:56:08,755 --> 00:56:10,175

You don't have to defend it.

814

00:56:11,437 --> 00:56:14,975

No one feels like they have the access to just walk up and touch your home.

815

00:56:16,087 --> 00:56:22,027

And there's such empowerment in that for black people.

816

00:56:22,195 --> 00:56:28,747

And then as we talk about the ways in which that is a response to the needs

817

00:56:28,855 --> 00:56:31,625

that history creates for our community.

818

00:56:32,362 --> 00:56:36,747

When you look at these headwinds that are listed at the end, you know, legal

819

00:56:36,792 --> 00:56:40,077

oppression. So you're talking about everything from redlining and race

820

00:56:40,107 --> 00:56:45,447

covenants to the highway system that was used to destroy black these eminent

821

00:56:45,492 --> 00:56:48,292

domains, things that continue to be going on.

822

00:56:48,340 --> 00:56:52,327

And now we're seeing everything from Hurricane Katrinas right now, right at

823

00:56:52,345 --> 00:56:56,497

this very moment, the COVID-19 crisis being used as an opportunity and

824

00:56:56,530 --> 00:57:02,227

excuse to further projects of gentrification in places all over this country

825

00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:03,367

that we won't hear.

826

00:57:03,415 --> 00:57:04,072

About that.

827

00:57:04,105 --> 00:57:09,727

We will not be openly acknowledged for maybe another five to ten years when

828

00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:14,352

it's over and everybody's gone and Harlem is no longer black and Baltimore

829

00:57:14,382 --> 00:57:15,217

is no longer black.

830

00:57:15,265 --> 00:57:16,572

And then, like Philly and DC.

831

00:57:16,617 --> 00:57:19,222

And when everyone's gone, then they go, well, you know what? This really

832

00:57:19,255 --> 00:57:21,877

happened around COVID, but it's happening right this moment.

833

00:57:21,970 --> 00:57:27,622

Exactly. So what we see and what we try to point out in this is how this is

834

00:57:27,655 --> 00:57:35,422

part of this suite of overlapping impressions that they give each other a

835

00:57:35,455 --> 00:57:38,012

very useful sense of plausible deniability.

836

00:57:38,587 --> 00:57:43,132

So, for example, just using COVID as an example, we don't have to talk about

837

00:57:43,285 --> 00:57:46,567

how black neighborhoods are being taken over or how gentrification is taking

838

00:57:46,615 --> 00:57:51,727

leaps and bounds during this moment, because the pandemic is just killing so

839

00:57:51,745 --> 00:57:53,337

many African Americans.

840

00:57:53,487 --> 00:57:55,572

We've been talking about it from the very beginning.

841

00:57:55,617 --> 00:57:56,877

From the very beginning.

842

00:57:57,057 --> 00:58:00,352

A couple of weeks into the pandemic, we started seeing reports of who is

843

00:58:00,370 --> 00:58:02,007

dying broken along racial lines.

844

00:58:02,022 --> 00:58:05,467

And I thought that to be so telling about the country we live in, because

845

00:58:05,515 --> 00:58:12,322

who looks at a lethal virus and decide that the important statistic to pull

846

00:58:12,355 --> 00:58:16,627

out of this is the skin color and the ethnic background of the people who

847

00:58:16,645 --> 00:58:19,452

are dying, as if the virus have a preference.

848

00:58:19,632 --> 00:58:23,827

But if the virus is killing all the black people, the virus is clearing out

849

00:58:23,845 --> 00:58:28,497

all these homes, then you don't have to talk about identification of who's

850

00:58:28,542 --> 00:58:29,450

moving in.

851

00:58:29,812 --> 00:58:31,497

Same thing that happened with Katrina.

852

00:58:31,542 --> 00:58:35,677

If the water cleared all of these people out, if it killed so many, if it

853

00:58:35,695 --> 00:58:38,827

destroyed all of these homes, and when these homes are rebuilt, well, now

854

00:58:38,845 --> 00:58:43,672

they're brand new, wonderful, beautiful homes, we're not really paying

855

00:58:43,705 --> 00:58:47,647

attention to who moved in and what was lost in that process.

856

00:58:47,830 --> 00:58:52,912

It becomes but it doesn't always have to be that clean.

857

00:58:52,975 --> 00:58:56,692

We talk about places like Oscar Village, Seneca Village, that were actually

858

00:58:56,740 --> 00:59:03,192

just destroyed through violence and were either made part of a manmade lake

859

00:59:03,252 --> 00:59:06,587

or were turned into, I think, Senator Village became part of Central Park.

860

00:59:09,112 --> 00:59:10,550

You see that going.

861

00:59:10,987 --> 00:59:15,427

But it's easy to get plausible deniability to that expansion of

862

00:59:15,445 --> 00:59:17,617

justification, if you're like.

863

00:59:17,665 --> 00:59:21,322

Well, it was the virus, but it doesn't have to be the virus, because you can

864

00:59:21,355 --> 00:59:24,322

say that, oh, well, why are there no black people that live in this area?

865

00:59:24,355 --> 00:59:26,017

Well, this is a very affluent area.

866

00:59:26,140 --> 00:59:27,950

Black people don't have as much money.

867

00:59:28,312 --> 00:59:31,957

Well, they don't have as much money because even with regardless of

868

00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:37,507

education, there's a pay disparity, there's a wealth disparity, there's an

869

00:59:37,510 --> 00:59:42,052

inheritance disparity, both of which are very largely predicated on a

870

00:59:42,070 --> 00:59:43,287

housing disparity.

871

00:59:43,437 --> 00:59:45,877

But if you're not going to look at all of them together, then it just

872

00:59:45,895 --> 00:59:48,457

becomes, well, you know, you just don't see them here or exactly.

873

00:59:48,535 --> 00:59:50,092

They don't do enough to get here.

874

00:59:50,140 --> 00:59:58,162

Yeah, and I think you're right then about like Brian always says, slavery is

875

00:59:58,225 --> 01:00:04,552

a foundational trauma in America and what becomes the United States of

876

01:00:04,570 --> 01:00:09,232

America. I mean, the first trauma in this country was the destruction of

877

01:00:09,310 --> 01:00:13,242

Native American communities before there was even in America.

878

01:00:13,302 --> 01:00:21,682

And then slavery occurs, and so it's woven through everything.

879

01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,327

And I think that's what we really see in that journey home and also the

880

01:00:25,345 --> 01:00:28,262

experiences of black homeowners.

881

01:00:28,762 --> 01:00:34,452

We definitely have an idea to expand the concept of this book to other parts

882

01:00:34,482 --> 01:00:36,212

of the diaspora.

883

01:00:36,862 --> 01:00:44,842

And so it's our hope to be able to come to Europe to tell the stories of

884

01:00:44,965 --> 01:00:53,062

black people in the Caribbean, to tell the stories throughout different

885

01:00:53,125 --> 01:00:59,592

countries throughout the African continent and how colonization impacted

886

01:00:59,727 --> 01:01:02,302

Africa and the idea of home.

887

01:01:02,395 --> 01:01:07,297

And so I'm hoping that that is something that if people come and get this

888

01:01:07,330 --> 01:01:13,717

book and preorder it and we get good numbers that we consider probably, hey,

889

01:01:13,765 --> 01:01:16,747

we want to continue and tell the story.

890

01:01:16,855 --> 01:01:19,867

Right now we're telling the story in America because those are our

891

01:01:19,915 --> 01:01:27,127

ancestors. But I think there's so many more stories to be told and it would

892

01:01:27,145 --> 01:01:31,432

be really exciting for us to go and be able to go to other parts of the

893

01:01:31,435 --> 01:01:36,082

diaspora to talk about what others have gone through as well.

894

01:01:36,235 --> 01:01:41,427

Yes, I think it would be really interesting here in the UK to start digging

895

01:01:41,457 --> 01:01:46,527

and uncovering a lot of the stories here, and especially with the Windrush

896

01:01:46,632 --> 01:01:48,247

generation here.

897

01:01:48,355 --> 01:01:52,252

So I think that would be really let me just have a word with your

898

01:01:52,270 --> 01:01:58,700

publishers. So while we're on this topic, I just wanted to ask if you can

899

01:01:59,287 --> 01:02:06,802

one thing that really made me start thinking was institutional racism and in

900

01:02:06,820 --> 01:02:11,692

America specifically because we're on the subject of America that is

901

01:02:11,740 --> 01:02:16,312

designed to alienate and prevent the African American community from

902

01:02:16,375 --> 01:02:20,975

achieving the American dream of homeownership and how it continues today.

903

01:02:21,712 --> 01:02:25,357

So from preventing land ownership by anyone other than white men.

904

01:02:25,435 --> 01:02:29,217

So more recently, the access of PPP loans.

905

01:02:29,277 --> 01:02:34,437

So we were just discussing this, but can you talk a bit more about beyond

906

01:02:34,512 --> 01:02:42,922

COVID how it shows up in the prevention of accessing the American dream and

907

01:02:43,105 --> 01:02:50,977

the ultimate joy of that goal of homeownership? Yeah, I mean, the American

908

01:02:51,070 --> 01:03:01,042

Dream was never considered for black people that is not designed a white

909

01:03:01,090 --> 01:03:02,037

male institution.

910

01:03:02,112 --> 01:03:08,722

Right. American dream, it wasn't for women as well.

911

01:03:08,905 --> 01:03:16,047

No, it was not for anyone other than a white heterosexual male who owned

912

01:03:16,092 --> 01:03:20,525

property and had some level of currency and power.

913

01:03:21,937 --> 01:03:30,382

It's something that it's this journey of, like you said, you're never at

914

01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:31,312

home here.

915

01:03:31,375 --> 01:03:37,252

And that is drilled in from the very beginning of black people arriving to

916

01:03:37,270 --> 01:03:38,075

this country.

917

01:03:38,812 --> 01:03:44,932

So for African Americans during the period of slavery, you didn't actually

918

01:03:45,010 --> 01:03:51,142

have you had slave quarters, and the slave quarters were off of the big

919

01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:56,407

house and they actually were not any sort of home at all.

920

01:03:56,485 --> 01:03:59,422

They were floored by many of them.

921

01:03:59,605 --> 01:04:02,707

They were not comfortable in any way.

922

01:04:02,860 --> 01:04:04,822

And they were extensions of the big house.

923

01:04:04,855 --> 01:04:07,187

So they were many times the kitchen

924

01:04:10,462 --> 01:04:12,682

or a Hearst that was there.

925

01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:18,202

And then you basically grew actually, it was Frederick Douglass who actually

926

01:04:18,220 --> 01:04:20,112

said he grew up in the kitchen.

927

01:04:20,262 --> 01:04:21,950

That was his house.

928

01:04:22,687 --> 01:04:31,117

And so that idea of you're never really home, there is no comfortable place

929

01:04:31,165 --> 01:04:37,025

for you continues or 400 years in this country.

930

01:04:37,612 --> 01:04:44,422

And so there is always that feeling of this is not for you and it's not for

931

01:04:44,455 --> 01:04:45,597

you to attain.

932

01:04:45,717 --> 01:04:51,292

And so what we find is, even for many of our homeowners in this book, they

933

01:04:51,340 --> 01:04:55,177

actually are pointing out to us things like race covenants in Tree C and

934

01:04:55,195 --> 01:04:57,657

Amir Smith outside of San Diego.

935

01:04:57,747 --> 01:05:02,202

That property that they bought still in the contract is the race covenant

936

01:05:02,232 --> 01:05:03,982

that I was going to mention that.

937

01:05:04,135 --> 01:05:09,292

Yeah. And if it says, can you tell everybody? Yeah.

938

01:05:09,340 --> 01:05:14,302

That you cannot sell this home to a black person, like it says that in the

939

01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,725

covenant. So these things, they're still there.

940

01:05:19,462 --> 01:05:24,742

And even the experiences of Camille and Joe, who talked about just the

941

01:05:24,790 --> 01:05:29,977

hardship that they went through trying to buy their home and feeling like

942

01:05:29,995 --> 01:05:34,147

they had to write letters and they were trying to get people, basically

943

01:05:34,255 --> 01:05:40,192

sponsor them to say, we are a good family and we deserve to be able to buy

944

01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:40,747

this home.

945

01:05:40,780 --> 01:05:45,052

And we're coming up against so many walls, to the point that it was like,

946

01:05:45,070 --> 01:05:49,432

okay, this is racism because it's not making sense in our own experience

947

01:05:49,585 --> 01:05:50,677

buying a home.

948

01:05:50,770 --> 01:05:58,447

And what we went through, it was not easy and it was not we talked to

949

01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,282

friends who were white and were like, hey, like, this is happening.

950

01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:07,942

Has this ever happened to you? To the point where to get our home, I

951

01:06:07,990 --> 01:06:13,027

actually had to write a letter to the president of the bank because there

952

01:06:13,045 --> 01:06:21,547

was a specific woman who every time we were about to get to closing, she

953

01:06:21,580 --> 01:06:24,277

would just be like, oh, but you don't have this paper.

954

01:06:24,370 --> 01:06:25,402

Oh, you don't have this.

955

01:06:25,420 --> 01:06:29,497

And I'd be like, well, first you never told us that we needed to have this.

956

01:06:29,530 --> 01:06:34,477

Like, it's not on the list and what are you talking about? And eventually I

957

01:06:34,495 --> 01:06:38,542

wrote a letter to the president saying, this person is definitely doing

958

01:06:38,590 --> 01:06:41,932

things that are stepping in front of us, being able to get our home.

959

01:06:42,010 --> 01:06:45,742

And I talked to other people, and they haven't gone through this.

960

01:06:45,790 --> 01:06:49,782

And now I can only figure that this is racism.

961

01:06:49,947 --> 01:06:54,517

And finally, after that letter went through, like within 48 hours, we

962

01:06:54,565 --> 01:06:56,007

finally got our loan approved.

963

01:06:56,097 --> 01:07:05,617

Even if that hadn't been for some real, really amazing help and even a

964

01:07:05,665 --> 01:07:11,092

personal relationship, we were going to basically my family banks, the place

965

01:07:11,140 --> 01:07:14,497

my family has been banking with since I was a child and my.

966

01:07:14,530 --> 01:07:17,752

Parents had such a great relationship with one person in particular there,

967

01:07:17,770 --> 01:07:22,777

and if that person hadn't stepped up and basically stayed late on a night to

968

01:07:22,795 --> 01:07:29,092

help us navigate, it was still a thing of the paperwork they had to get in

969

01:07:29,140 --> 01:07:30,052

and things that were done.

970

01:07:30,070 --> 01:07:37,047

And it was a question of seconds at the end of a Friday before our closing

971

01:07:37,092 --> 01:07:39,472

got pushed back another three months.

972

01:07:39,580 --> 01:07:44,902

And so because this person stepped up and a few other people saw what we

973

01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,537

were going through, we're willing to kind of take a couple of extra seconds.

974

01:07:48,687 --> 01:07:52,187

But you shouldn't have to jump through these hoops.

975

01:07:53,362 --> 01:07:58,250

It doesn't make sense for me.

976

01:08:00,187 --> 01:08:02,707

I'm not even really going to try to answer this question.

977

01:08:02,860 --> 01:08:09,477

But one of the things I love so much about this book is being in a valve,

978

01:08:09,507 --> 01:08:12,057

recovering academic, lifelong nerd.

979

01:08:12,147 --> 01:08:16,222

I love bibliography at the end of it.

980

01:08:16,255 --> 01:08:16,850

Yes,

981

01:08:19,912 --> 01:08:27,747

for one, because understanding that there is a as we talk about systematic

982

01:08:27,792 --> 01:08:31,902

racism in the ways in which is woven into American culture, society, there's

983

01:08:31,932 --> 01:08:37,942

an instinctive reaction of disbelieving black experience when somebody says,

984

01:08:37,990 --> 01:08:39,350

this is what's happened to me.

985

01:08:40,237 --> 01:08:43,752

But was it really as bad? It was? Slavery really as bad? It was? Prison

986

01:08:43,782 --> 01:08:46,717

really like, was it really what you're saying it was? And so it's important

987

01:08:46,765 --> 01:08:49,777

to be able to say, here's where a lot of this information comes from.

988

01:08:49,795 --> 01:08:52,477

It's not the full bibliography, but some of the most important ones, but

989

01:08:52,495 --> 01:08:56,542

it's also a way of pointing out places where you can read more and learn

990

01:08:56,590 --> 01:09:02,737

more from people who are better at a particular aspect of this than we are.

991

01:09:02,875 --> 01:09:06,892

So being able to look at work like that, that's being done.

992

01:09:06,940 --> 01:09:10,827

A lot of it being done by black economists like Janelle Jones, like William

993

01:09:10,857 --> 01:09:11,912

Darrity, Jr.

994

01:09:12,562 --> 01:09:14,975

Who are both, I think, just amazing.

995

01:09:16,387 --> 01:09:20,872

Really starts to dig into a lot of information that more people need to

996

01:09:20,905 --> 01:09:29,407

have, because we're encouraged by society, by representations and media and

997

01:09:29,410 --> 01:09:34,122

things like that, to believe that this is a simple situation and that it's

998

01:09:34,167 --> 01:09:38,737

just the way that it is without reference to all of the time and history

999

01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,052

that's going into making it this way or the things that are being done right

1000

01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:43,625

now to keep it this way.

1001

01:09:48,412 --> 01:09:53,122

I feel like we could talk about this for not just hours, days, weeks and

1002

01:09:53,155 --> 01:09:54,125

months and months.

1003

01:09:56,962 --> 01:09:58,602

You need to have a course, Brian.

1004

01:09:58,707 --> 01:10:00,457

I think we all need to teach.

1005

01:10:00,610 --> 01:10:06,547

We need to do it together because it's also because if I don't have her,

1006

01:10:06,580 --> 01:10:08,452

then I'll just go on for way too long.

1007

01:10:08,620 --> 01:10:10,342

Denise should also have a course.

1008

01:10:10,465 --> 01:10:12,650

You also have an after sheet course.

1009

01:10:13,387 --> 01:10:15,275

We'll discuss at the end of the show.

1010

01:10:17,737 --> 01:10:20,862

We're happy to come to Oxford if you all are offering.

1011

01:10:21,012 --> 01:10:24,852

We love to do professors in resident types and deals.

1012

01:10:24,882 --> 01:10:26,225

I have to call my people.

1013

01:10:27,937 --> 01:10:32,075

I have to share one of my favorite, favorite quotes in the book.

1014

01:10:32,812 --> 01:10:34,712

I love my favorite quote.

1015

01:10:35,137 --> 01:10:39,352

Well, this is just like it just got me thinking, and I was like one of the

1016

01:10:39,370 --> 01:10:42,772

things that I noticed right away was all the color in the book, like the

1017

01:10:42,805 --> 01:10:49,222

vibrancy. And so one of my favorite quotes was from Shauna Freeman, and she

1018

01:10:49,255 --> 01:10:51,287

stated, color is an heirloom.

1019

01:10:51,637 --> 01:10:57,942

And I was just like, just that one quote.

1020

01:10:58,002 --> 01:10:59,387

Color is an heirloom.

1021

01:11:00,187 --> 01:11:04,342

One thing that really stands out in these homes is the owner's relationship

1022

01:11:04,465 --> 01:11:05,197

to color.

1023

01:11:05,305 --> 01:11:09,472

And the book is so vibrant, and the homes evoke so much joy and comfort and

1024

01:11:09,505 --> 01:11:14,375

love. I just had to share that.

1025

01:11:15,262 --> 01:11:17,900

I have a lot of favorite quotes in the book.

1026

01:11:20,062 --> 01:11:24,177

We're both so glad that you have a lot of favorite quotes.

1027

01:11:24,207 --> 01:11:29,527

And I think it's just, you know, we've been asked about things like color,

1028

01:11:29,620 --> 01:11:34,147

and people are like, oh, did you, like, go and make sure you found, like,

1029

01:11:34,180 --> 01:11:37,972

colorful homes? We're like, no, we just went to people that we liked and

1030

01:11:38,155 --> 01:11:43,552

that we knew were very authentic people and asked them to be a part of the

1031

01:11:43,570 --> 01:11:51,097

book. But I think that African Americans aren't afraid of color, and that

1032

01:11:51,130 --> 01:11:52,677

actually just goes throughout the diaspora.

1033

01:11:52,707 --> 01:11:55,942

Like, there is no fear of color.

1034

01:11:56,140 --> 01:11:57,747

Old choices.

1035

01:11:57,942 --> 01:12:06,687

Yeah, all things really dropped by sort of what is sort of like the normal

1036

01:12:06,762 --> 01:12:11,272

American home, where it's like, people get really afraid of color.

1037

01:12:11,380 --> 01:12:14,127

I'm just like, it literally is just like, paint it's.

1038

01:12:14,157 --> 01:12:15,727

Okay, fine.

1039

01:12:15,895 --> 01:12:18,322

You don't like it forever, paint over it.

1040

01:12:18,355 --> 01:12:20,917

You can get rid of it, and people will have this.

1041

01:12:20,965 --> 01:12:22,552

Like, I can't do it.

1042

01:12:22,570 --> 01:12:23,572

It's too much.

1043

01:12:23,755 --> 01:12:26,752

And for black homes, it's always been, like, color.

1044

01:12:26,845 --> 01:12:33,907

Sometimes the degrees that I don't embrace African Americans loved in the

1045

01:12:33,910 --> 01:12:38,527

was very common to go into an African American relatives home, go into

1046

01:12:38,545 --> 01:12:43,552

relatives home and see an orange wall or a yellow wall, and those are, like,

1047

01:12:43,570 --> 01:12:45,862

some of the hardest colors to design with.

1048

01:12:45,925 --> 01:12:49,632

And but people loved it if you're like, oh, it's like the sunset, and it's

1049

01:12:49,647 --> 01:12:53,122

just so warm, and there's this warmth that happens.

1050

01:12:53,230 --> 01:12:58,002

But what we do love, especially from a design perspective, is that embrace

1051

01:12:58,107 --> 01:13:03,437

of color and just embracing decorating your home freely.

1052

01:13:04,612 --> 01:13:07,767

It doesn't need to be a painful enterprise.

1053

01:13:07,902 --> 01:13:10,112

It doesn't need to be overthought.

1054

01:13:10,537 --> 01:13:12,592

We talk about this all the time.

1055

01:13:12,790 --> 01:13:14,877

You don't have to be wealthy.

1056

01:13:15,057 --> 01:13:21,712

It really is just about what it says to you and also how you're telling your

1057

01:13:21,775 --> 01:13:26,187

story. And that's where the design begins.

1058

01:13:26,262 --> 01:13:31,927

And color is such a big part of that because color evokes memory, and, you

1059

01:13:31,945 --> 01:13:36,247

know, whether it's something like, oh, I just love blue, because maybe you

1060

01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:40,642

had a blue room as a child or something that just attracted them, always

1061

01:13:40,690 --> 01:13:41,452

calmed you.

1062

01:13:41,545 --> 01:13:43,792

And people want to integrate that into their home.

1063

01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:49,537

So we're always I think I love that culturally, we embrace color.

1064

01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:57,307

We embrace art, we embrace having fun with our homes, and in the end.

1065

01:13:57,460 --> 01:14:01,972

That's why so many of these homes are so authentic and interesting is

1066

01:14:02,005 --> 01:14:06,172

because every one of these folks, they just really embrace what they love

1067

01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:09,277

and it's there in a very authentic way.

1068

01:14:09,370 --> 01:14:11,075

Yeah, they're all just being them.

1069

01:14:12,487 --> 01:14:15,087

There are ways even to do like the orange.

1070

01:14:15,237 --> 01:14:22,537

Alexander smalls home just is that quintessential African American color

1071

01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:24,987

palette of the orange, of all the yellow.

1072

01:14:25,062 --> 01:14:28,972

But then at the same time, what I love so much about his home is it's the

1073

01:14:29,005 --> 01:14:33,697

combination, it expresses him so succinctly and so beautifully when you read

1074

01:14:33,730 --> 01:14:40,032

a story, because its places, this combination, 1920s Harlem renaissance

1075

01:14:40,122 --> 01:14:44,967

parlor and North Carolina country kitchens.

1076

01:14:45,102 --> 01:14:47,600

South Carolina? Yeah.

1077

01:14:50,287 --> 01:14:51,847

So don't hurt me like that.

1078

01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,967

The reason I said North Carolina is because I was also having thinking about

1079

01:14:55,015 --> 01:15:02,172

Shauna. And what was so amazing with Shauna was that even for her, stepping

1080

01:15:02,217 --> 01:15:05,687

into that level of personal expression for her was the decision.

1081

01:15:06,112 --> 01:15:08,617

It was something that she had to take a step at a time.

1082

01:15:08,665 --> 01:15:16,357

So she said the first room she did was the bright pink room her girl did.

1083

01:15:16,435 --> 01:15:20,272

And just like Jenny said, she said, I'm going to try it.

1084

01:15:20,455 --> 01:15:23,375

It's going to be up here in this back room that I'm not really using.

1085

01:15:23,737 --> 01:15:26,975

If it looks crazy, at least nobody will see it.

1086

01:15:28,462 --> 01:15:33,502

I could shut the door, right? Nobody will see it.

1087

01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:34,972

And I can figure out what to do with later.

1088

01:15:35,005 --> 01:15:38,572

But it turned out to be amazing and it got her started on like, well, then

1089

01:15:38,605 --> 01:15:39,892

let me do this other room.

1090

01:15:40,015 --> 01:15:44,872

The blue room is gold ceiling and it is an amazing space.

1091

01:15:45,055 --> 01:15:48,502

The Moroccan influence and the Egyptian influences and all these things that

1092

01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:54,247

come into it, things that come from her family and her history and so all of

1093

01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:55,012

those things together.

1094

01:15:55,075 --> 01:15:58,597

But it started her on this path of going, well, I'm going to express myself

1095

01:15:58,705 --> 01:15:59,992

a little bit here.

1096

01:16:00,190 --> 01:16:02,152

And I like where that's going? So now I'm going to do here.

1097

01:16:02,170 --> 01:16:05,872

And now she's got this place where it's like every inch of the place is

1098

01:16:05,905 --> 01:16:09,727

amazing because then her art collection came in with things that she's been

1099

01:16:09,745 --> 01:16:11,922

collecting since living in Virginia.

1100

01:16:11,967 --> 01:16:15,022

But especially when she was living in New York, like Brooklyn, she got the

1101

01:16:15,055 --> 01:16:21,832

Tribe called Quest frame and all these amazing things and because she just

1102

01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:27,577

started to occupy her own space and she just started to take that moment and

1103

01:16:27,745 --> 01:16:28,852

it doesn't always go right.

1104

01:16:28,870 --> 01:16:31,597

I won't be admit like the home I grew up in.

1105

01:16:31,780 --> 01:16:33,125

CFOAM green,

1106

01:16:36,712 --> 01:16:38,317

it's a difficult color.

1107

01:16:38,515 --> 01:16:41,167

I'm not going to say that it can't be done.

1108

01:16:41,365 --> 01:16:45,875

I will say, to my honestness, I don't feel like we landed it.

1109

01:16:46,987 --> 01:16:50,987

I don't know if we didn't do it justice.

1110

01:16:52,612 --> 01:16:56,017

But then also in our defense, when we moved into the house, I was five years

1111

01:16:56,065 --> 01:17:00,087

old, it had this bright orange wall to wall carpeting.

1112

01:17:00,237 --> 01:17:02,907

Wow. That didn't eventually go like that's.

1113

01:17:02,922 --> 01:17:03,597

Not there anymore.

1114

01:17:03,642 --> 01:17:06,157

But that carpeting was kind of like where we started.

1115

01:17:06,235 --> 01:17:14,682

So we had things oversight, whoever lived there before, but it was a choice.

1116

01:17:14,847 --> 01:17:18,050

But some people just have it.

1117

01:17:19,087 --> 01:17:23,197

They went into that space and they said, I need this to feel like me.

1118

01:17:23,380 --> 01:17:26,307

And I think one of my favorite examples of that is Paul Soupett.

1119

01:17:26,322 --> 01:17:31,627

Because as an artist and this amazing use of paints and textures and all

1120

01:17:31,645 --> 01:17:35,727

these things in this dream world that he says he's existed in since growing

1121

01:17:35,757 --> 01:17:36,522

up in Jamaica.

1122

01:17:36,567 --> 01:17:39,800

And then he took his home and said, this is my world.

1123

01:17:40,312 --> 01:17:43,702

And now he looks at as that thing that he needs in order to be able to go

1124

01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:44,947

out and face the world every day.

1125

01:17:44,980 --> 01:17:48,552

Like, I need to start from here and when I'm out, I need to know that I'm

1126

01:17:48,582 --> 01:17:49,700

coming back here.

1127

01:17:50,137 --> 01:17:51,802

And that's what home is.

1128

01:17:51,820 --> 01:17:55,175

And that's why the color is important and everything that goes into it.

1129

01:17:55,612 --> 01:17:56,467

I love it.

1130

01:17:56,515 --> 01:17:57,667

I love it.

1131

01:17:57,865 --> 01:18:00,287

I want to live in so many of those rooms.

1132

01:18:02,212 --> 01:18:03,950

The houses are really cool.

1133

01:18:05,212 --> 01:18:08,387

The book is available on the 15 November.

1134

01:18:09,412 --> 01:18:16,475

How do we preorder it? You can preorder it by heading to the website.

1135

01:18:16,912 --> 01:18:20,947

And you can also order yes.

1136

01:18:21,055 --> 01:18:27,877

So I will say though, pre order on Amazon is what most people do and just

1137

01:18:27,895 --> 01:18:29,967

know that that's how folks buy books.

1138

01:18:30,102 --> 01:18:34,432

And so you can absolutely pre order on Amazon or on AphroChic.com.

1139

01:18:34,510 --> 01:18:38,602

And you can also visit Penguin Random House and you can preorder there as

1140

01:18:38,620 --> 01:18:41,167

well. You can also preorder through our Instagram account.

1141

01:18:41,215 --> 01:18:45,982

Yeah, it's kind of honestly, if you just type in Afro sheet celebrating the

1142

01:18:45,985 --> 01:18:48,652

legacy of the black family home, it's actually pretty cool.

1143

01:18:48,670 --> 01:18:50,337

We've seen you can preorder in Japan.

1144

01:18:50,412 --> 01:18:52,147

You can preorder all over the world.

1145

01:18:52,255 --> 01:18:56,557

So wherever books are sold in your part of the world, you will find that you

1146

01:18:56,560 --> 01:18:57,237

can preorder.

1147

01:18:57,312 --> 01:18:59,292

Perfect. That's so exciting.

1148

01:18:59,427 --> 01:19:01,357

Okay, people, preorder the book.

1149

01:19:01,435 --> 01:19:06,622

Okay, well, it means so much to me that you were able to join me today for

1150

01:19:06,655 --> 01:19:08,887

our extended Gallery Date.

1151

01:19:09,025 --> 01:19:10,775

A Gallery Date first.

1152

01:19:11,362 --> 01:19:13,325

Let's make sure it's not the last one.

1153

01:19:15,262 --> 01:19:17,675

I would love to have you back on the show.

1154

01:19:18,412 --> 01:19:19,222

We love you.

1155

01:19:19,255 --> 01:19:20,587

We thank you for your great questions.

1156

01:19:20,650 --> 01:19:22,402

You are awesome at this.

1157

01:19:22,495 --> 01:19:25,637

I'm excited to catch more of the episode.

1158

01:19:26,137 --> 01:19:27,050

Thank you.

1159

01:19:27,562 --> 01:19:28,722

This is fantastic.

1160

01:19:28,767 --> 01:19:29,967

This is you in your element.

1161

01:19:30,027 --> 01:19:30,907

I totally love it.

1162

01:19:30,985 --> 01:19:32,137

Thank you so much.

1163

01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:38,225

I miss you all so much and I love you and I'm really, so excited for you.

1164

01:19:38,662 --> 01:19:43,777

This is really, really cool and I'm so honored, so honored that you took so

1165

01:19:43,795 --> 01:19:45,682

much time to chat with me about the book.

1166

01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:48,997

And I cannot wait for the world to read it.

1167

01:19:49,180 --> 01:19:52,747

It's so well done and congratulations again and thank you.

1168

01:19:52,780 --> 01:19:53,077

Thank you.

1169

01:19:53,095 --> 01:19:57,442

Thank you for letting me take a first look at it and I just love it.

1170

01:19:57,565 --> 01:19:58,992

Okay, that's the wrap.

1171

01:19:59,052 --> 01:20:00,757

Thank you so much for tuning in.

1172

01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:01,747

To the gallery date.

1173

01:20:01,855 --> 01:20:05,527

Join me for our date every Wednesday for a bitesized episode on

1174

01:20:05,545 --> 01:20:09,742

thegallerydate.com please follow rate and review The Gallery Date on

1175

01:20:09,790 --> 01:20:13,857

YouTube, Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1176

01:20:13,947 --> 01:20:18,007

This episode was sponsored by jennsingergallery.com.

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01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:20,025

Thanks again for joining me and I'll see you soon

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The Gallery DateJenn SingerNovember 9, 2022video podcast, blog, vlog, jenn singer, the gallery date, art news, activism, opinion, artnews, milk protests, national gallery, waitrose, milk, vegan, extinction rebellion