Episode 10: A Conversation with Artist Marius von Brasch
Welcome to The Gallery Date, a weekly date with Jenn Singer to chat about art and life and perhaps the art of life, all in bite sized, not-at-all fancy, but definitely savory episode nuggets. (Season 2 coming soon!)
This week, Jenn sits down with contemporary artist Marius von Brasch to discuss his current exhibition 'Black Sun, Braided Time' and to learn more about his life and work.
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This podcast is brought to you by Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer Gallery.
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Welcome to the gallery date.
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I'm Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer gallery.
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Thanks for joining me for our weekly date to chat about art and life and
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perhaps the art of life, all in bite sized, not at all fancy, but definitely
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savory episode nuggets.
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Let's mingle, my friends.
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Don't forget to press record
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Jenn. Well, hello, strangers.
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I have to say, I've really missed our Gallery Dates.
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So before season two starts production this summer, I thought we should catch
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up and see how everyone's doing.
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So what we've been up to is this month, on jennsingergallery.com, we launched
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Black Sun Braided Time, a virtual exhibition of German British artist Marius
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von Brash's oil paintings on linen and drawings on paper.
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Marius's work is very complex.
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It's as complex as it is beautiful.
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His paintings and drawings are emotional, expressionist and full of movement
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passion. The artist himself is kind, loving, gentle, and just one of the
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most interesting people that I've had the pleasure of meeting and talking
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with. It's one thing to see his work, but meeting Marius and learning about
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him and his work is altogether different in the best possible way.
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So that's why today I'm sitting down with him to interview him from his Isle
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of Wight studio.
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So first, before we get started with that, I'll just give you a little bit
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of background on Marius.
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He is a German British artist.
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He received his Ma with distinction from Winchester School of Art,
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University of Southampton, where he also completed his practice based PhD.
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He was awarded the Abbey Fellowship in Painting at the British School in
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Rome in 2013, and he has a background in psychotherapy and literature.
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He teaches experiential approaches to painting as well as courses on art and
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literature. His work is held in the Priseman Seabrook Collection, the
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University of Essex modern and Contemporary British Art Collection and is
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held in international private collections.
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The artist is a member of contemporary British painting and lives and works
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on the Isle of Wight in the United Kingdom.
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So, without further ado, here we go.
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Here's my interview with Marius.
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I hope it gives you more insight to the artist himself and how and why he
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creates his work.
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And please visit jennsingergallery.com/blacksun to check out his current
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exhibition. All right, here we go.
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Here's my interview with Marius von Brasch.
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Hi, Marius.
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Welcome. It's so lovely to see you today.
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How are you? Thank you so much for inviting me for this interview.
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I'm fine.
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I'm prepared for this here in my studio.
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Good. Brilliant.
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Well, it's nice to see a peek inside your Isle of Wight studio.
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So why don't you start by giving us a little background information about
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you as an artist...A bit more extensive background than being an artist.
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I started out as a child to love music and learned the piano and was quite
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obsessive with it, but had in mind to become a composer.
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And I gave this idea up probably puberty because I thought, this is not what
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I want to deliver.
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Competition in the piano and so forth.
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I started to discover literature at this point, and actual visual art
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started with me really just beginning in my twenties.
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And it was a quite spontaneous experience with being left alone with pastels
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and big paper.
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And then something took over somehow and it was actually, on some level
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really quite life changing for me because after this experience I wanted to
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have that again, that experience, this materiality of the pigments and so
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forth, that I found fascinating.
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And I wanted to go on with this.
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So I learned for many years actually, through this intuitive process and in
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parallel working with observational drawing to strengthen from that.
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So the intuitive process got me working on what is called mark making.
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But I find this is really very energetic and very nearly primal experience.
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On some level.
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The passion is more in working from something, I couldn't define what it
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really is.
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So I did a lot of research around, I mean, taking myself as a kind of guinea
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pig to find out what is this when one paints from within and what is
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happening there.
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And I mean, I come from a family where psychoanalysis was quite on the
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table, my father was an analyst.
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These models of psychoanalysis have been for me not really always very
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helpful. I found them, in the end, too restrictive.
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But what I want to say is so I had a long phase of self taught in hindsight,
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this long phase to deal with my own approach and with my own guidance from
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something in me has helped me to find my language in a certain way.
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So I did do my training then later, I mean, my formal training in terms of I
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produced a book out of a series of monochromatic paintings which dealt with
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this subject of Oedipus and it was a mixture of quite serious and quite ironic
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images. And this book saved me having to go for a long BA.
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So here in Britain, I went directly for the MA and I did this in order to
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break my habits.
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So I did what is possible here and written the practice based PhD.
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That means half of my thesis is an exhibition and half is a theoretical
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text, which I did with philosophical themes.
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From then on, that was 2012, I did finish my PhD.
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From then on I had become a committed eight hour artist in a way, and I have
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in the meantime, I mean, I left this out, but it's important.
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Through my own experiences, I went into a training as a gestalt therapist
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and body therapist.
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So I've been working in psychotherapy for 14 years and gave this up 2007 in
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order to do only art.
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So this is I did the psychotherapy in combination with offering workshops
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for finding your own traces, finding your own way of I mean, basically to
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share my experience.
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I had but with people who were very insecure about their painting or felt
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they wanted to explore something completely different or, like myself, break
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through some molds of how to paint.
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And so wanted to free this up a bit.
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But of course, for me, who I am now as an artist is a mixture of all of
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these things.
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So the intuitive bit has always stayed with me, and this is how I approach
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my work.
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But the knowledge I have gained and the formal training, formal ideas that
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are in my mind.
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And so they played a role in the end to make it much more structured than
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when I started.
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So when you first started painting, it was actually large scale drawings on
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paper that you worked on initially.
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And what was that experience like? And you were quite young, you were in
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your early 20s, is that right? I felt it was overwhelming.
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This is why I wanted that again, because it was an experience of being
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really myself.
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Well, I just wanted to get an idea of I wanted to picture where this
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happened in my head.
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Can you paint the picture? Was this when you were living in Germany still?
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Were you already in England? I lived with a girlfriend together in Frankfurt
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and we had a very short relationship and lived together there.
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And she was an art student and gave me this big sheet of this big paper.
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Our circle said that we're all into art and music or writing or whatever,
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and it was on a wooden floor.
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She was very angry at me later because of all the pigments between the I
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left a bad impression there.
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It wasn't going to work out anyway, I think still to her, because that was a
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very cathartic moment for me.
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That was when I really felt I knew always I wanted to do art or music or so,
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but this is where I felt I am now.
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And this is a really big difference, isn't it? Before education or whatever,
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there were there were quite a lot of obstacles in the way.
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And of course, there are always obstacles to come to a flow of creativity
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also phases when it doesn't work and come back and flow.
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One needs to trust into, but I had enough time to learn that.
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When you were painting or drawing, what was the evolution of the mediums
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that you explored? I started actually mainly with drawing, but for me, these
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divisions have been always a bit questionable because I think that some of
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my drawings are paintings in my mind, although they are sparse.
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And I started them with oil as well because I liked the smell and the kind
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of substance of these colors to touch them and to work with my fingers on
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the canvas and so on.
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But I had to learn a lot.
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In the beginning,
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I slowly learned this oil painting, and later I did acrylics in between and
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I got into oil painting because it gives me more time.
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And I like slow art also to look at art slowly.
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So for me, it's more suitable, it develops more organically.
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I find with acrylic, when it dries very quickly, whereas color gives you
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more time.
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Yeah. And you've got a very academic style, almost to your paintings.
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Not academic, but you give it time and space.
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You can see that in your work.
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All the details and stuff like that.
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Yes, exactly.
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These are formal concerns, I think, and also knowing more about what I
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really enjoy doing.
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So I have a real love for classical art.
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I mean, and contemporary art, but it's more Renaissance Baroque and then
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contemporary, what I really like.
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And I go often to the National Gallery and just sit there and look.
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And one of the painters I've learned most from is Pussain, Nicolas Pussain.
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And it is about how do they structure a canvas? Because it's a space, it's a
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window, it's a theater space, or whatever one wants to call it.
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And how can I invite the viewer, get the viewer on a journey and enjoy the
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journey myself? But it is something I want to communicate.
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So it's not only I don't want to be, let's say, on stage on these paintings,
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but I want these paintings to talk as if they don't know they're observed.
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So they build their space themselves.
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And they might look sometimes as if the curtain opens in the theater, but
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none of the figures looks at you.
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Really. Well, that brings me to another question that I wanted to ask you,
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which was your partner, Mike.
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When he sees your paintings, he says he can hear your paintings.
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And I've had a similar reaction to your work, especially the piece in the
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Black Sun exhibition that's behind you.
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Pansy. We had a whole conversation when I first saw the work.
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I felt like it was very musical, almost like operatic
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music was my first love, somehow.
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And I do I mean, you said the formal aspect, academic aspect.
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Also, for me, I don't think myself it's academic.
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It's more like built sometimes, I think, to string quartets often, and they
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are built in movements, and each movement has got a certain mood and certain
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development, and I like to have that.
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My paintings have got a different quality to them, a different energy,
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different color theme, and still in the same size.
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So they work as a set of very well, I think.
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Hang on.
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But about the painting, about Pansy yes.
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When I first saw it, I felt like it had a musical element to it, almost
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operatic, or it's a very dramatic piece and it has a lot of movement, which
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all of your work has a lot of energy and movement in it.
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But I would love to hear you listen to music while you're painting.
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No, I don't listen to them.
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For me, they are very much about the flow.
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I want to mediate, I mean, to show experience what I painted.
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But it needs to be structured in the same time.
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So for me, that's really important to have a counterweight of the smooth and
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the striated, one could say the fluidity and the kind of segments that
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separate things and make it possible to show different rooms.
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I mean, this painting here, the Panzer painting was for me, a quite unusual
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experience. The other one was, for me, very difficult to make.
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The subject of this one here was how do I bring together Polarities? And
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this is very simple in painting.
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Cold colors, warm colors, light, darkness.
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And it's an old subject that is used in alchemy.
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So how do I bring fire and water together, for example? And as it is also
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quality of feeling in myself and in other people.
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So it's very much about the energies.
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How do I bring together the watery energy with all its associations of
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feeling and depression and excitement and so on.
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And fire, which is drier and has the association of light and sometimes
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anger and so on.
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So I wanted to fuse them.
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And it was very difficult because of the color scheme.
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You're talking about echoing green specifically.
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Yeah, because the other thing developed from that.
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This is why I talk about it.
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Okay. So pansy was development after or during the development of green,
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both canvases.
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This one was green prepared and the other one was pink.
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So because in themselves there are Polarities already.
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In the end.
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How will they work together? I'm not sure whether they work actually so well
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together, those two.
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They're too different.
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But okay.
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So I had this one took me very long and the other one was very small, very
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fast. And while painting, I suddenly realized this is what I paint there.
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This is how I felt as a child.
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Exactly. This is my world as a child, this painting.
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And normally I don't like to be personal in my paintings.
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Somehow I want always to go beyond my kind of 24/7 life and want to go
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something into something deeper that I share with other people as well
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because I think it has got something more to communicate.
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But I felt I need also to be really clear about this.
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This is the reason why I called it penancy because I was very sensitive as a
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child and I had the experience that I was told everywhere that it's wrong
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and that I'm not a real boy.
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And then I was bullied for a while.
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And this has deeply imprinted me.
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I'm to be beaten up and not be able to fight back and not understanding.
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I didn't understand that.
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So I was quite dreamy child, very probably very imaginative.
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I guess I was very perceptive for feelings, energies, I mean, basically very
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open. And this experience of being bullied, I mean, of course, I was never
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called a pansy because I grew up in the German language and was never said
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like this.
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People were worried about me.
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They said, why don't you want to play with this? And why don't you want to
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play football and all of this stuff.
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And then being bullied by other boys and to suddenly feel I'm attracted by
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other boys.
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You say homosexual and gay and all these words, but they were very non.
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This was all very nonverbal, but all wrong.
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Let's say this is probably one of the most important personal experiences I
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had and that I bring into my work as well, to question, to pose questions
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about what it means to be a man.
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Calling this pansy self portrait as a child
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was a really good experience for me to have this as a last experience
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painting for this show as well, coming up.
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And I thought, okay, so I will put this out there in the show and with this
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title, because I know that in English it has a good, very strong
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connotation, which emotionally I don't really feel.
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But I like flowers, I like Pansies.
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So you're embracing it.
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Being called gay and homosexual and all of this is fine.
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This has been part of my development to be uncomfortable with having to
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compartmentalize myself, although my real life one partner for over 30
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years. So I've made my decisions, obviously, but I'm not sure whether this
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is really the best quality of our contemporary life that everybody has to
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compartmentalize him themselves to fight against the division that is going
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on currently again, especially in the States.
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I think it's really frightening.
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So one needs to make a stand, but it is a shame that one has to make stand
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at all.
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I mean, I'm more than that and everyone who is more and we are all very
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different. It's very different to have a kind of cohesive community that
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says we are all Panzies and so on.
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But I think also that a lot of men who are not living as a gay man have the
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experience of being bullied.
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I want to keep my work open for everyone who wants to step in.
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And I've put a few things from Alchemical old imagery and to contextualize it
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or however that came to my mind.
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It can you talk about that a bit, about how you incorporate alchemy into
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your work for a long time now, I think for twelve years or longer.
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Really fascinated by chemical imagery from Renaissance time.
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So they are painted around 1550, but it goes on then into early Baroque as
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well. It was a flourishing time for people who came up with alternative
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models to Christianity in the west.
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And it is actually really interesting stuff, these images.
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They play around with gender fluidity, with a man.
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In order to gain really, kingship, the position of being a believable king
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has to be when he's able to stand on the moon, which is of course a
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feminine, so called feminine symbol.
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And also for the woman, she has to stand on the sun.
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And in between is a hermaphrodytic face, an androgenous face where you have
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got one body with two genitals and two heads.
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It has been used in surrealism, of course, but for me, it is more about how
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to say, as humans, we live through imagination.
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We can model in our imagination all kind of stuff, and it's all real.
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And this is also how we construct our everyday life, through fantasies and
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helplessly beings that argue with each other, projecting onto each other.
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It's so much about imagination and all our attempts to have this really
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grounded into science and so on is all very fragile.
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So what I do is I take some of these images, scan them and dissect them into
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different fragments and so on, and change the color values and project them
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onto a new canvas.
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What I didn't want to do is to repeat alchemical images.
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I've a little bit repeated on this one here by quoting the snake thing, the
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so called war snake that bites in its own tail, I mean, basically a symbol
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of eternity.
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And that's an echoing green you're pointing to formation.
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So the alchemical images play for me a role of research because I find
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fascinating how they did it and in the same time also to just chop them up
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and be irreverent with them and use them knowing what these guys, how
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beautiful. I mean, this is not being nasty to these images.
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It's more using their potential and knowing that I'm connecting with them.
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But I need to do it in a contemporary way.
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So I want to find new ways of speaking about this clash of my everyday mind,
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my rationality, my reason with these subconscious or what we call
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subterranean forces.
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Black sun, for example.
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Is it okay when I go into this briefly? Because it's yes, please.
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I would love to talk about black sun is one of your large scale paintings on
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canvas or on linen in the show and part of the title, an inspiration for the
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title. So Black Sun is when I say the clash between reason and those
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elements in us, we can't harness, I mean, imagination and all the images we
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have about this.
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It's subterranean, it's hell, it's kind of deep cellars and so forth.
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This is, in mythology, often used for descent into the underworld.
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And one of the earliest things we know is one of the most prominent one is
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the story of Osiris, the god, I mean, the god of the farmhouse, but also the
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god of vegetation.
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So he has to go into the underworld for 12 hours and has to get on his dark
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boat, protected, but also challenged in the darkness in order to come out
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and be received by the goddess of dawn,
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which is associated in ancient history with Venus.
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So he is greeted by the goddess of dawn into the new day.
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So I mean, this is the earliest form of the descent into the underworld in
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order to come up with something new and something that in his power position
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there as something meaningful.
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But you have the same for Persiphone, for the feminine role, and the same
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for Psyche.
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They need to go into the darkness in order to mature or to come up with
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something important.
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Then we have got obvious, of course, as an role model for the artist.
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Sightwombly has done a lot about obvious and in connection with the poems of
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Reka. And I found that in Alchemy, it's the image of the black sun.
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So the sun goes down into the earth.
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It's a very primitive interpretation of this, but it's it's maybe not
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primitive. It's it's just very literal.
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One can imagine it when you don't know how the earth is shaped and so on.
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And I like the kind of poetry of it, the sun blackens.
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And this is in Ikea image of being in contact with really inferior elements
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in oneself that are like mud, like depression, like really difficult dark
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stuff, or grief, for example, as well.
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00:28:32,868 --> 00:28:38,718
And to know, because this is the alchemist knowledge that in the darkness
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there is that spark that will illuminate the sun in the end.
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But it needs to go through this purification process, through these
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processes again and again and again, till it comes to a point where a kind
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of new life force is regained.
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In Alchemy, this is then the red sun in the end.
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So in this black sun, this was my way of being almost natural.
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But I had to do this because I thought the last winter had such a really
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heavy atmosphere around for lots of people.
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I know.
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I mean, including yourself.
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Yes, I know.
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00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:23,154
I think it was a rough winter for a lot of us, and I don't know what it was
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00:29:23,192 --> 00:29:29,122
about this particular winter, but I know everybody, so many people
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struggled, and I think we've all struggled.
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00:29:31,358 --> 00:29:37,558
In the past three years, there's been a lot of darkness that we've had to
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come through.
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00:29:38,412 --> 00:29:44,854
Yeah. Lockdown and also, what's politically going on does sometimes make me
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very sad and I think, actually it makes me angry.
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This is how the black sun came to pass.
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00:29:56,608 --> 00:30:01,834
And I thought, I need to be maybe quite literal here to have this circle.
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I mean, to have this circle on my painting, which I have then continued in
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the echoing green.
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There's a circle in there, just this new thing, the green, and it's in the
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same side of the canvas.
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And it is a bit of an echo.
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It plays with being on another level because I wanted to, again with this
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00:30:25,192 --> 00:30:32,674
painting, it's important to keep the dark side in the new as well, alive,
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00:30:32,802 --> 00:30:34,086
like in the black sun.
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00:30:34,188 --> 00:30:39,482
There's also something going on on the other side with light and with some
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energy, with this fire.
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00:30:43,790 --> 00:30:48,906
I want to have this life energy always present somehow, wherever it is, I
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00:30:48,928 --> 00:30:50,398
think it really comes through in your work.
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00:30:50,484 --> 00:30:55,738
There's always that spark that you see kind of blazing through, whether it's
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in the background or kind of just a spark through.
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00:31:00,130 --> 00:31:04,674
If it's a darker piece, it's a spark of light that comes through.
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00:31:04,872 --> 00:31:10,626
I mean, I don't want to be too because it might sound sentimental also, but
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00:31:10,648 --> 00:31:16,742
I mean it really I think that there is a lot of very difficult stuff going
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on for a lot of people.
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00:31:18,908 --> 00:31:24,726
But I find it also important to keep somehow to meditate somehow I mean, to
402
00:31:24,748 --> 00:31:28,822
have something positive around and something transformative.
403
00:31:28,966 --> 00:31:30,394
I believe that.
404
00:31:30,592 --> 00:31:38,214
I feel it's not believing, it's knowing that in these transformative phases
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00:31:38,342 --> 00:31:44,462
like alchemists, they talk about transformation basically from dark through
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00:31:44,516 --> 00:31:46,302
process into something else.
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00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:51,310
And it's not that it remains then, oh, fantastic hippie, everything is fine,
408
00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:55,882
it's just in a continuous movement of becoming result.
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00:31:55,946 --> 00:32:04,466
Right. So coming as this kind of intertwined polarity idea ying yang or whatever one
410
00:32:04,488 --> 00:32:10,760
wants to call it so this would be in a nutshell, I think, yeah.
411
00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:20,842
I want to hear a bit more about how well, there are two things how your work
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00:32:20,896 --> 00:32:26,042
has changed and evolved since that very beginning in your early twenty s.
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00:32:26,176 --> 00:32:34,350
And what do you think the most significant marker was for you or milestone
414
00:32:34,930 --> 00:32:42,766
was for you and that change or difference in your work? And then also how do
415
00:32:42,788 --> 00:32:47,346
you think it's changed since the last three years as we've gone through this
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00:32:47,368 --> 00:32:54,274
pandemic? And how that's worked for you changed your work due to my age.
417
00:32:54,312 --> 00:32:56,360
This is a long thing, so I'll make it short.
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00:32:57,770 --> 00:32:58,758
You're very young.
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Very young.
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00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:05,270
So it started clumsy.
421
00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:07,942
Clumsy but true.
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00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:09,626
Somehow it felt for me too.
423
00:33:09,648 --> 00:33:11,146
I didn't show people.
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00:33:11,328 --> 00:33:13,482
I started to show them at a later point.
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00:33:13,536 --> 00:33:20,714
And I had my sister in law with an artist who was somehow really like my
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00:33:20,752 --> 00:33:24,718
mentor. And she believed always in me, she had always a feeling I have to
427
00:33:24,724 --> 00:33:25,518
say something.
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00:33:25,684 --> 00:33:31,054
So when I was at my worst and showed her and thought this is all really
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00:33:31,092 --> 00:33:37,634
horrible and unskillful and so and she said you have got something there,
430
00:33:37,672 --> 00:33:40,962
you just go on, do it, do it, do it.
431
00:33:41,016 --> 00:33:42,066
Which I did.
432
00:33:42,248 --> 00:33:49,086
So I developed this kind of what is kind of maybe called surreal language,
433
00:33:49,118 --> 00:33:52,130
but it has I've never identified with surrealism.
434
00:33:52,210 --> 00:34:00,282
For me, surrealism is too precious on some level and too much engaged with
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00:34:00,336 --> 00:34:02,070
having women as their muses.
436
00:34:02,150 --> 00:34:05,820
And I find they functionalize, the feminine and women.
437
00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:11,290
And it's for me too dogmatic.
438
00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:13,966
So I was called.
439
00:34:13,988 --> 00:34:16,000
Are you Surrealistic? And I said, well,
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00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:29,860
at that point I liked artists like Max Beckman and John Dubuffy and
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00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:39,826
Antonin ATO, where there was something quite primal and quite distressed in
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00:34:39,848 --> 00:34:41,060
their work as well.
443
00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:44,178
Beckman, of course, is highly developed.
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00:34:44,274 --> 00:34:46,806
His mythological paintings are really amazing.
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00:34:46,988 --> 00:34:53,290
I find him still his last works, these triptychs are just really wonderful.
446
00:34:55,310 --> 00:35:03,454
So I developed a certain I think I was okay with myself, so after maybe ten
447
00:35:03,492 --> 00:35:08,158
years, I could formulate more what I had in mind.
448
00:35:08,244 --> 00:35:13,966
But the real important point was the decision to do my ma and to have a
449
00:35:13,988 --> 00:35:16,330
fantastic supervisor best Holland.
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00:35:16,490 --> 00:35:22,062
And I said to her, I come here in order to break my habits as a painter.
451
00:35:22,126 --> 00:35:22,962
And she said, Great.
452
00:35:23,016 --> 00:35:25,586
This is exactly what we want to do with you.
453
00:35:25,768 --> 00:35:32,710
And can you find something or paintings where you reflect, where you can see
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00:35:32,860 --> 00:35:37,358
the reflection of your own work? And then I found the alchemical pictures.
455
00:35:37,554 --> 00:35:40,442
Okay. So this is how I got there.
456
00:35:40,496 --> 00:35:48,300
And I started, first of all, to make photocopies of some really big ones and
457
00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:52,750
cut them apart and make colors, which are actually quite nice.
458
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:57,200
But then I digitized the whole process.
459
00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:08,738
How did you do that, then? Yeah, to scan an image and to go in Photoshop and
460
00:36:08,744 --> 00:36:14,114
to cut it into segments, change colors, make a collage out of them, and use
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00:36:14,152 --> 00:36:16,690
the collage as a springboard for protection.
462
00:36:16,850 --> 00:36:17,750
Got it.
463
00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:22,902
Yeah. And elements of this I still use.
464
00:36:22,956 --> 00:36:24,310
I mean, elements of this process.
465
00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:31,286
But I got into this very easily as soon as I found these images.
466
00:36:31,318 --> 00:36:36,170
I thought these guys had the same in mind, but they did it very differently.
467
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:43,422
I can see that colleagues work with alchemy, other painters, sometimes very
468
00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:45,070
literal, by quoting
469
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:56,734
this is somehow the breaking point was for me, my allowing to contextualize
470
00:36:56,782 --> 00:36:57,860
my work more.
471
00:36:59,430 --> 00:37:05,042
Okay. Regarding the last three years.
472
00:37:05,176 --> 00:37:06,642
Yeah, it did initially.
473
00:37:06,706 --> 00:37:09,734
And maybe it's uncomfortable to hear this, but for me, it was really
474
00:37:09,772 --> 00:37:13,954
important to be forced to be really silent.
475
00:37:14,082 --> 00:37:15,880
And I really enjoyed that.
476
00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,220
I've heard that from a lot of people, actually.
477
00:37:20,910 --> 00:37:25,180
I felt good about the silence of it.
478
00:37:27,630 --> 00:37:34,910
I made one painting that I think you have got in the gallery as well, called
479
00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:45,490
One Day, One Night, One Evening, something like it was the feeling of having
480
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,890
a greater contact to a bigger picture through COVID.
481
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:52,706
Not only this, quiet.
482
00:37:52,808 --> 00:37:58,418
I mean, I had to do a lot before, constantly, and with shows and things I
483
00:37:58,424 --> 00:38:00,070
had to do and deadlines and so on.
484
00:38:00,140 --> 00:38:05,462
And I was really glad that this had all gone and that at last time to go
485
00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:08,140
deeper into the subject that really interests me.
486
00:38:09,390 --> 00:38:13,850
And then we had our contact as well.
487
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:21,420
And this gives me also more space to say, okay, just do it.
488
00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:27,694
It is a corporation like this that is very helpful for me.
489
00:38:27,892 --> 00:38:36,894
So Lockdown was, for me, a good reminder of something.
490
00:38:37,012 --> 00:38:42,510
And I think for me, as an artist, I need a lot of introversion and silence.
491
00:38:43,810 --> 00:38:51,474
This research, elements, and thinking about stuff, feeling into it, this unit
492
00:38:51,522 --> 00:38:56,358
of thinking, feeling and intuition, this, I think, is very important.
493
00:38:56,444 --> 00:38:59,642
And the material bit come, I mean, there's four elements, if you like.
494
00:38:59,696 --> 00:39:01,658
Yeah, they come together like that.
495
00:39:01,824 --> 00:39:07,642
It sounds like the painting process for you is so like it's almost
496
00:39:07,696 --> 00:39:16,910
meditative. And it sounds like it's very cathartic when you finish a work.
497
00:39:16,980 --> 00:39:18,080
Is it just like ah, done.
498
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:29,826
I know probably when one works out as well, there is a kind of effect of
499
00:39:29,928 --> 00:39:34,706
happiness. And when I have finished the work and sometimes difficult to know
500
00:39:34,728 --> 00:39:41,590
when, let's say the signpost or the pointer for me is this feeling of
501
00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:49,558
there's something I feel that feels right, so I don't try too much.
502
00:39:49,724 --> 00:39:52,540
But that comes always with formal aspects as well.
503
00:39:53,390 --> 00:39:56,810
There is some balance not achieved or something like that.
504
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,690
But yeah, it can be cathartic when I recognize what it's about.
505
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,160
Because in the beginning I never know what it's about.
506
00:40:04,690 --> 00:40:07,598
And even when I plan something, it's different.
507
00:40:07,764 --> 00:40:11,534
So it comes up as you're working? Yeah, it comes up when I work.
508
00:40:11,572 --> 00:40:16,002
And this is pansy subject was for me very interesting because I thought,
509
00:40:16,136 --> 00:40:21,342
okay, something in me wants that to be on the canvas and to be communicated
510
00:40:21,406 --> 00:40:22,340
to the outside.
511
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:26,686
And then I thought, Can I do this? Is this too personal or not? And I said
512
00:40:26,728 --> 00:40:31,240
no. It's actually films of many people to be a successive child.
513
00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:35,942
I think we connect most with the paintings that came from the most
514
00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:43,702
vulnerable places in the artist or the dancers or the musicians or any
515
00:40:43,756 --> 00:40:45,960
creative making work.
516
00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:52,826
That place of vulnerability really create them this much more approachable
517
00:40:52,938 --> 00:40:53,840
end result.
518
00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:59,374
Yes. And I hope that in my work that comes across anyway, whether I say
519
00:40:59,412 --> 00:41:01,040
something about it or not.
520
00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:09,202
Because I think in my drawings, for example, I really think I cultivate that
521
00:41:09,256 --> 00:41:10,660
to go very much.
522
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:18,102
These color pencils, they have such a wonderful how to say they yield to
523
00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:19,000
really energy.
524
00:41:19,850 --> 00:41:21,190
They emphasize
525
00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,494
what I want them to do.
526
00:41:25,532 --> 00:41:27,000
They are wonderful with that.
527
00:41:28,570 --> 00:41:35,222
So to follow really a line and let this life of this line being be there and
528
00:41:35,356 --> 00:41:37,320
leave it there like it is.
529
00:41:37,850 --> 00:41:42,830
I think it's also something Trumbly Sad, who I by the way, admire greatly.
530
00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:48,878
That a line that to do the line for its own life.
531
00:41:48,964 --> 00:41:54,106
Something like this in the line, especially in drawing.
532
00:41:54,138 --> 00:41:59,794
I think this is a different a little bit of a different medium for me than
533
00:41:59,832 --> 00:42:03,090
painting. So therefore my drawing look different.
534
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:04,530
There's more emptiness.
535
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:11,270
Line has much more presence than in painting.
536
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:17,286
There's a lot more space, a lot more breathing room in your drawings on
537
00:42:17,308 --> 00:42:22,380
paper. I love the emptiness of the paper often.
538
00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:30,114
And then there's a frenetic energy in some of the drawing and painting
539
00:42:30,182 --> 00:42:31,886
pieces works.
540
00:42:32,068 --> 00:42:35,280
And I think that is the energy.
541
00:42:37,410 --> 00:42:40,974
It's so interesting, the drawings versus the paintings, because they both
542
00:42:41,012 --> 00:42:45,860
have energy and moving qualities to them.
543
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:54,642
But there's that special quality of that white space surrounding the works
544
00:42:54,696 --> 00:43:01,078
on paper where you just give us the space to enjoy the quick burst of energy
545
00:43:01,164 --> 00:43:02,040
that happens.
546
00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:04,520
I think it's really special.
547
00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:05,718
Thank you.
548
00:43:05,804 --> 00:43:14,394
I feel that looking at Asian art, classical art, has had an influence on
549
00:43:14,432 --> 00:43:22,246
that, but also the so called informal it's called informal.
550
00:43:22,278 --> 00:43:26,480
It's art movement in the 1980s.
551
00:43:26,850 --> 00:43:31,854
And my sister in law, she made drawings that were I mean, they're very
552
00:43:31,892 --> 00:43:34,430
different, but they leave this space.
553
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:40,866
And I went to a show about American drawings that was in Frankfurt in the
554
00:43:40,968 --> 00:43:45,890
early 1980s when I was just really into becoming an artist.
555
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:52,440
And I loved these works because there was so much about empty space,
556
00:43:53,050 --> 00:43:55,080
especially sworny stuff, again,
557
00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:06,186
and also about, in classical drawing, the fine pressure that is used for
558
00:44:06,208 --> 00:44:13,662
charcoal or for Sungreen, especially the the reddish drawings that people
559
00:44:13,716 --> 00:44:18,522
like Vatu and also Boucher.
560
00:44:18,586 --> 00:44:22,362
I mean, he's despised for his paintings, but look at these wonderful
561
00:44:22,426 --> 00:44:23,230
drawings.
562
00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:34,370
I want to go back to how your works can sometimes initially appear abstract
563
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:40,214
and then all of a sudden you take a closer look and there are these little
564
00:44:40,252 --> 00:44:45,606
figures and these little marks that you've made and structures kind of
565
00:44:45,628 --> 00:44:47,830
emerging buildings.
566
00:44:49,950 --> 00:44:56,346
Could you discuss the process of creating these hidden elements of your
567
00:44:56,368 --> 00:45:03,546
work? I mean, it sounds like the cutouts from the alchemy alchemical pieces
568
00:45:03,578 --> 00:45:06,974
that you're building into the work might be part of it that you already
569
00:45:07,012 --> 00:45:13,154
described. But no, it's it's it's I think it comes from what I was talking
570
00:45:13,192 --> 00:45:18,340
about earlier, about I loved to hide stuff as a child
571
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:25,118
and to find things.
572
00:45:25,304 --> 00:45:34,006
So I was always somehow in a garden looking for things in the earth or in a
573
00:45:34,028 --> 00:45:35,526
shrub and things like this.
574
00:45:35,628 --> 00:45:40,250
And I hoped always to find something beautiful or something of interest,
575
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,900
which I would collect them.
576
00:45:42,350 --> 00:45:52,026
And on another level, it's a kind of obstinacy on my part that I don't
577
00:45:52,058 --> 00:45:54,890
believe in the division between abstract and figurative.
578
00:45:54,970 --> 00:46:00,910
I find this silly, to be honest, but okay, this is just my opinion.
579
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:11,374
Here in England, it was very formative to people to say, I'm going abstract.
580
00:46:11,422 --> 00:46:16,406
And I thought, why should I have to go abstract if I don't want that? And I
581
00:46:16,428 --> 00:46:19,398
like to play with both.
582
00:46:19,484 --> 00:46:25,906
I like to surprise myself when I paint it and not to be bored.
583
00:46:25,938 --> 00:46:28,380
I love paintings where I can discover things.
584
00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:36,874
Somebody has taken the time to put a little detail in that can be
585
00:46:36,912 --> 00:46:41,514
discovered. I mean, somebody like John Martin, the Scottish painter who did
586
00:46:41,552 --> 00:46:45,994
this apocalyptic landscape, which I have just seen when I was in Newcastle.
587
00:46:46,042 --> 00:46:51,600
Actually, it was really good because I know them from reproductions, but
588
00:46:54,930 --> 00:46:57,438
they are, of course, really over the top and so on.
589
00:46:57,444 --> 00:47:02,442
But they have got in these really big, tiny elements, little horses,
590
00:47:02,506 --> 00:47:04,640
people doing this, people doing that.
591
00:47:05,050 --> 00:47:07,270
Also buildings falling apart.
592
00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:10,518
I felt somebody had that done before.
593
00:47:10,604 --> 00:47:13,670
I feel that these things falling apart.
594
00:47:14,170 --> 00:47:17,800
This is when certain concepts in life that don't work out.
595
00:47:18,350 --> 00:47:21,434
And I think this is currently happening for a lot of people.
596
00:47:21,472 --> 00:47:29,642
It's like when dreams break in the same time that something else rises out,
597
00:47:29,776 --> 00:47:30,880
something new.
598
00:47:33,330 --> 00:47:38,238
And the concept of it has to break sometimes for that new thing to come out
599
00:47:38,244 --> 00:47:45,646
of, like the Phoenix Rising. Yeah I was running this Workshop and this subject, the phoenix came up
600
00:47:45,668 --> 00:47:47,578
because in that room was a big phoenix.
601
00:47:47,674 --> 00:47:52,286
Yes. And maybe I'd briefly say this now again, because I think it's
602
00:47:52,318 --> 00:47:57,746
important also with the dawn and so on, I think it's really important to see
603
00:47:57,768 --> 00:48:01,814
the difference between that approach, which comes very much from a
604
00:48:01,852 --> 00:48:07,814
consciousness of experience of working with minor things, not with major
605
00:48:07,932 --> 00:48:10,258
concepts and some, but with small things.
606
00:48:10,364 --> 00:48:17,354
Because in political movements, the dawn and breaking the Phoenix Rising is
607
00:48:17,392 --> 00:48:23,902
often coming from the right, I.
608
00:48:23,956 --> 00:48:29,614
E. To break society down and then nationalism comes through and purity comes
609
00:48:29,652 --> 00:48:34,354
through and supremacy of race comes through and so on.
610
00:48:34,472 --> 00:48:38,034
This is nothing to do on any level.
611
00:48:38,152 --> 00:48:39,602
This is what I'm talking about.
612
00:48:39,656 --> 00:48:45,010
This is not about purification process, it's about being conscious about
613
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,946
this intertwining of the difficulty.
614
00:48:48,978 --> 00:48:53,174
I mean, this rubbing, this frictionless is everywhere going on and it has
615
00:48:53,212 --> 00:48:55,894
its own beauty, but it's a problem.
616
00:48:56,092 --> 00:48:57,414
No, I'm glad you said that.
617
00:48:57,452 --> 00:49:04,586
And I think it's important to especially these days with such resurgence of
618
00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:06,060
the extreme right.
619
00:49:06,430 --> 00:49:10,460
I think it's really important to clarify these things.
620
00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:19,886
The extremists always bastardize these concepts, don't they? So yeah, I
621
00:49:19,908 --> 00:49:23,902
mean, therefore, I mean, these are the purity and stuff like this, these are
622
00:49:23,956 --> 00:49:29,890
concepts that are that are completely imbalanced and false and inhuman.
623
00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:38,774
But the awareness I think what I try to do with these ideas because these
624
00:49:38,892 --> 00:49:44,290
ideas that I find there are visual ideas as well, that I've seen discovered,
625
00:49:44,370 --> 00:49:46,310
like many others as well.
626
00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:52,586
But they have got a potential that one can use for something that is in
627
00:49:52,608 --> 00:49:57,034
reality about being human on a very basic level.
628
00:49:57,152 --> 00:50:07,006
To have to fight with grief, with death, to embrace love all of these things
629
00:50:07,108 --> 00:50:13,310
that I try in reality to work about, these are the subjects I'm I'm thinking
630
00:50:13,380 --> 00:50:14,960
about. Very, very simple.
631
00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:21,860
Yeah. The simplest are sometimes the most complex, aren't they? Yeah.
632
00:50:25,210 --> 00:50:28,262
And every generation does it in a different way.
633
00:50:28,396 --> 00:50:30,440
Yeah, exactly.
634
00:50:32,650 --> 00:50:36,200
So I have some more questions.
635
00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:43,130
Where should I go next?
636
00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:45,900
Here's a fun one.
637
00:50:46,910 --> 00:50:51,406
If you could have any superpower as an artist, what would it be and how
638
00:50:51,428 --> 00:50:58,400
would it affect your artwork? I would paint much bigger size,
639
00:51:01,570 --> 00:51:07,426
really long arms to extend my body.
640
00:51:07,528 --> 00:51:15,814
I mean, to make it longer arms, longer body, all in all, and have really big
641
00:51:15,852 --> 00:51:21,110
brushes that can also shrink and get very fine for details.
642
00:51:22,490 --> 00:51:23,800
That would be a good one.
643
00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:27,438
I would go for really big paintings.
644
00:51:27,554 --> 00:51:34,426
Yeah. So that would require like superhuman extensions on the arm because I
645
00:51:34,448 --> 00:51:40,742
have to be on the letter and I find from somewhere from 180 or 2 meters
646
00:51:40,806 --> 00:51:43,886
onwards, which is summer, six foot, seven foot.
647
00:51:43,988 --> 00:51:49,790
It gets a bit awkward and I have to go to the chiropractor.
648
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:57,140
Yeah, okay, well, that's a fun one.
649
00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:06,306
I think a lot of artists especially would be interested in hearing how you
650
00:52:06,328 --> 00:52:12,294
made the transition and how you bit the bullet and said I'm a full time
651
00:52:12,332 --> 00:52:16,600
artist, this is my job, this is how I make money, this is the work I do.
652
00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:22,810
And yes, there will be things here and there that supplement that work.
653
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:29,066
But how I think that artists especially would be interested in hearing about
654
00:52:29,088 --> 00:52:36,160
that. I worked as a psychotherapist, as I said, and run workshops that would
655
00:52:36,690 --> 00:52:44,834
focus on a kind of combination of psychological elements and painting from
656
00:52:44,872 --> 00:52:49,140
within. I e the body mind.
657
00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:54,820
So what I decided I had the feeling that I came to the end of my shelf life
658
00:52:55,850 --> 00:52:56,854
after 14 years.
659
00:52:56,892 --> 00:53:00,440
I thought I need to have done that.
660
00:53:00,970 --> 00:53:04,840
It doesn't feel genuine anymore, so I need to really let go.
661
00:53:05,370 --> 00:53:10,154
And I prepared my clients early enough.
662
00:53:10,352 --> 00:53:14,826
It was really important to give everyone a kind of deadline and say this is
663
00:53:14,928 --> 00:53:16,474
when I will stop.
664
00:53:16,672 --> 00:53:23,614
And with my partner together and with another income I have, that was
665
00:53:23,652 --> 00:53:32,754
possible. But of course it got me in a I mean, I did instant stopped working
666
00:53:32,792 --> 00:53:36,100
as a psychotherapist and did my academic training.
667
00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:40,100
So for three all in all, four years
668
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:51,640
and afterwards it was very much to get myself out there.
669
00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:59,994
I got this Abbey Fellowship award which is a very good award which came with
670
00:54:00,032 --> 00:54:05,418
three months in Rome at the British School at Rome where I could develop my
671
00:54:05,504 --> 00:54:13,594
drawings. And I thought after this I bet you doors open for me, which they
672
00:54:13,632 --> 00:54:21,534
didn't. That was a hard process for me to learn to become more and more
673
00:54:21,652 --> 00:54:28,594
independent and on some level, I mean independent of I think with this
674
00:54:28,632 --> 00:54:34,434
friction of not succeeding, which I had a long time in my life, really, as
675
00:54:34,472 --> 00:54:34,986
an artist.
676
00:54:35,038 --> 00:54:37,240
I've had a long time not seen.
677
00:54:39,050 --> 00:54:47,206
And I think this was necessary for me as an artist to really develop in the
678
00:54:47,228 --> 00:54:49,494
way I needed to have my own language.
679
00:54:49,622 --> 00:54:55,702
I would say that I can access my language relatively easily.
680
00:54:55,766 --> 00:54:59,210
I get sometimes quibbles like everyone else as well.
681
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:07,440
But there was a kind of I mean, when we met, this was a strange I mean,
682
00:55:07,970 --> 00:55:12,606
basically to work with a gallery was something I I really wanted, but it
683
00:55:12,628 --> 00:55:13,722
didn't come up.
684
00:55:13,876 --> 00:55:18,770
Once I had a colleague who had a galleries and it was a very bad experience
685
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:25,438
and I was a bit careful from then and I had also funny encounters with
686
00:55:25,464 --> 00:55:26,230
galleries.
687
00:55:29,690 --> 00:55:37,350
I participated with other people in research projects and also in shows
688
00:55:37,420 --> 00:55:41,670
where we had to put some money in, sometimes even good shows, really good
689
00:55:41,740 --> 00:55:43,082
funds with catalog and everything.
690
00:55:43,136 --> 00:55:44,506
But we had to pay for it.
691
00:55:44,608 --> 00:55:48,682
And we took each time the risk or I took the risk saying I will sell
692
00:55:48,736 --> 00:55:53,374
something. And sometimes I did and it gets me out there and somebody will
693
00:55:53,412 --> 00:55:54,830
see me and blah, blah.
694
00:55:55,490 --> 00:55:56,782
So I did this.
695
00:55:56,916 --> 00:56:07,186
And at some point, and this was 21, I'd organized a wonderful solo show for
696
00:56:07,208 --> 00:56:10,750
myself where I didn't have to paint, was in an old bunker.
697
00:56:10,910 --> 00:56:14,734
Yes, the gray walls were fantastic.
698
00:56:14,782 --> 00:56:19,686
I mean, this gray concrete for my kind of work, which is very colorful and
699
00:56:19,868 --> 00:56:21,960
needs neutral background always.
700
00:56:22,410 --> 00:56:23,586
That was ideal.
701
00:56:23,618 --> 00:56:26,070
And I could show all really big work.
702
00:56:26,220 --> 00:56:27,894
So I was very happy with this.
703
00:56:27,932 --> 00:56:30,906
But internally I said, this is the last show I do.
704
00:56:31,088 --> 00:56:32,538
I've got enough of it.
705
00:56:32,624 --> 00:56:35,530
I'm tired from having to put all this energy.
706
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,340
And then we had the contact suddenly, and then we met
707
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:46,094
in the moment when I say, okay, I had it, something else comes up.
708
00:56:46,132 --> 00:56:48,720
I found this really amazing.
709
00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:54,670
Yeah, it is amazing to let go, to have something new coming up.
710
00:56:54,740 --> 00:56:57,860
And I think this is all just talk, talk.
711
00:56:59,910 --> 00:57:01,986
But then I didn't think about letting go.
712
00:57:02,008 --> 00:57:03,746
I just thought, I've got enough of it.
713
00:57:03,768 --> 00:57:08,614
I was really angry at the situation of having to pay into and people come
714
00:57:08,652 --> 00:57:09,942
always, of course, for free.
715
00:57:09,996 --> 00:57:14,102
I mean, musicians, normally they get even a ticket sale or whatever.
716
00:57:14,156 --> 00:57:19,114
But as an artist, you expect it to be glad to be able to show something at
717
00:57:19,152 --> 00:57:22,346
all. And I find is wrong.
718
00:57:22,448 --> 00:57:26,780
I find the institution, how artists are treated in society is not right.
719
00:57:27,870 --> 00:57:28,860
I agree.
720
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:34,366
In Holland, for example, artists have got a kind of income because they work
721
00:57:34,468 --> 00:57:38,842
on some subjects that are of a societal nature.
722
00:57:38,906 --> 00:57:43,970
Which is true, isn't it? This is how I did this.
723
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,490
But it was a risk.
724
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:52,626
But for example, to close the chapter of working as a psychotherapist was
725
00:57:52,808 --> 00:57:54,162
very good for me.
726
00:57:54,296 --> 00:57:59,720
And I hope I have done it well the 14 years I worked with people
727
00:58:02,890 --> 00:58:04,918
and to engage with people.
728
00:58:05,004 --> 00:58:09,000
And this has been always very close to me.
729
00:58:09,930 --> 00:58:15,686
I like to have a discussion about this was the reason why I thought it's
730
00:58:15,718 --> 00:58:18,940
also okay to have an interview like today.
731
00:58:21,470 --> 00:58:25,454
I don't do this only for me and nobody is allowed to see this.
732
00:58:25,572 --> 00:58:27,278
It is a communication, I think.
733
00:58:27,364 --> 00:58:28,000
Yes.
734
00:58:32,210 --> 00:58:36,100
I'm really glad that that door did not close and that we met.
735
00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:39,858
But I think it's really interesting for other artists to hear because I
736
00:58:39,864 --> 00:58:44,770
think that it's hard being an artist.
737
00:58:45,690 --> 00:58:47,442
My background was a dancer.
738
00:58:47,506 --> 00:58:53,334
And you put all of these hours into rehearsal and getting your body to be
739
00:58:53,372 --> 00:59:00,474
this major machine that has this incredible muscle memory and can perform
740
00:59:00,592 --> 00:59:02,810
and work and never take a break.
741
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:07,866
And in fact, taking a break isn't great for the practice of it.
742
00:59:07,888 --> 00:59:10,990
And then you finally have these performances.
743
00:59:11,490 --> 00:59:17,774
And my experience was dancers don't really get paid much for performing, if
744
00:59:17,812 --> 00:59:18,640
at all.
745
00:59:20,130 --> 00:59:23,202
And there are a lot of people who have to self produce, like you said.
746
00:59:23,336 --> 00:59:28,370
And so it was very disheartening for me as a performing artist.
747
00:59:29,430 --> 00:59:36,742
And I think a lot of artists, on one hand, they want to take the leap, but
748
00:59:36,796 --> 00:59:42,374
on the other hand, they always need to have some sort of something
749
00:59:42,492 --> 00:59:46,226
generating income if they're not always selling.
750
00:59:46,258 --> 00:59:48,860
And artists, even the best selling artists, don't always sell.
751
00:59:51,230 --> 00:59:59,626
I was quite lucky in that regard, but I wanted to have my income through my
752
00:59:59,648 --> 01:00:00,650
art as well.
753
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:06,046
And when you say the doors closed, I didn't want to stop painting, but I
754
01:00:06,068 --> 01:00:12,138
thought I do just for myself and leave it and they can sort it out when I'm
755
01:00:12,154 --> 01:00:12,702
gone then.
756
01:00:12,756 --> 01:00:14,240
So something like this,
757
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:23,540
but often opens up a path for people to do it.
758
01:00:24,790 --> 01:00:27,446
Yeah, that's true.
759
01:00:27,548 --> 01:00:33,286
I think sometimes you have to take that leap to open up that path, like you
760
01:00:33,308 --> 01:00:36,918
said, and you never know what's going to happen.
761
01:00:37,004 --> 01:00:41,500
But I think the most important thing what I've observed with artists and
762
01:00:41,870 --> 01:00:48,618
with dancers, with painters, with all types of different artists over my
763
01:00:48,784 --> 01:00:55,854
years, I've noticed that the people who really stay focused and keep the
764
01:00:55,892 --> 01:01:02,094
practice going keep the work going, even if it's just for themselves and not
765
01:01:02,132 --> 01:01:06,466
putting it out there all the time, but the practice of doing it every day or
766
01:01:06,568 --> 01:01:14,130
as often as they need to, and just never giving up and staying focused and
767
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,338
being consistent.
768
01:01:15,454 --> 01:01:22,114
That is what seems to really drive the most successful artists.
769
01:01:22,162 --> 01:01:25,334
Even if it takes some long period of time.
770
01:01:25,532 --> 01:01:32,214
I think in my development, during the development, I felt it was distressing
771
01:01:32,262 --> 01:01:39,866
to me that I thought you should paint, like more like it's done today and do
772
01:01:39,888 --> 01:01:42,350
it like so and so and like so and so.
773
01:01:42,500 --> 01:01:49,518
And in me, there is something that absolutely says no, so I have to do it in
774
01:01:49,604 --> 01:01:55,300
this particular way, which I have described earlier on.
775
01:01:59,350 --> 01:02:06,006
In hindsight, I think this helped me really not to cater for the side guys,
776
01:02:06,108 --> 01:02:09,800
in a way, or not try to cater for the side guys,
777
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:17,110
or to do something that is not really felt.
778
01:02:17,930 --> 01:02:21,066
But for me, that was really important, that I need to feel these things and
779
01:02:21,088 --> 01:02:26,794
that it has got something I don't know how to say it, but it is something
780
01:02:26,832 --> 01:02:30,022
that needs to be genuine, maybe something like that.
781
01:02:30,176 --> 01:02:38,160
Yeah, it has to come from an authentic place, right? Yeah, difficult,
782
01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:45,294
authentic, we never know when is what's authentic, but yeah, lots of
783
01:02:45,332 --> 01:02:47,040
disturbance around as well.
784
01:02:48,550 --> 01:02:50,020
But it was for me.
785
01:02:50,470 --> 01:02:55,606
Sometimes I thought, oh, you're really stupid that you don't do something
786
01:02:55,708 --> 01:03:02,946
lighter and just to get a few things off the staple and so on, it didn't
787
01:03:02,978 --> 01:03:07,538
work. So in hindsight, it's just how I am.
788
01:03:07,724 --> 01:03:13,994
Yeah. I think it's interesting because your work has been collected by
789
01:03:14,192 --> 01:03:21,546
institutions, private collectors and even via interior designers who specify
790
01:03:21,738 --> 01:03:27,706
your work for their clients, which is a really good sign of wide appeal.
791
01:03:27,818 --> 01:03:38,100
But also is that kind of approachability or kind of placement? I think
792
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:44,450
because it can be so emotional.
793
01:03:45,610 --> 01:03:48,246
You mean my work? Yes, your work.
794
01:03:48,348 --> 01:03:55,000
It can be so emotional that I think it's great that it could even be
795
01:03:56,170 --> 01:04:00,566
accessed by people who are placing work for other people, like an interior
796
01:04:00,598 --> 01:04:02,220
designer or something like that.
797
01:04:03,070 --> 01:04:07,930
How does that make you feel with how you want to be? I have got, for years,
798
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:15,262
one collector who has got paintings that were very difficult to look at, and
799
01:04:15,316 --> 01:04:16,318
she loved them.
800
01:04:16,404 --> 01:04:17,866
And I thought, how weird.
801
01:04:17,898 --> 01:04:19,754
That something that I felt.
802
01:04:19,802 --> 01:04:24,114
Can I show that? I mean, each time when, for example, The Black Sun, I
803
01:04:24,152 --> 01:04:25,694
thought, I can't show that painting.
804
01:04:25,742 --> 01:04:29,330
And then you kind of said, oh, I love this painting.
805
01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:35,374
Okay. Obviously, I'm sometimes not aware of that.
806
01:04:35,512 --> 01:04:43,400
People want actually to see something that has got depth, severity, almost
807
01:04:44,890 --> 01:04:46,134
sorry, I didn't catch that.
808
01:04:46,172 --> 01:04:49,580
Almost like a severity or a darkness to it.
809
01:04:50,030 --> 01:04:55,420
Yeah. I try always to get something in that makes it balances it a bit out.
810
01:04:57,870 --> 01:05:04,634
It did encourage me, actually, a lot also, when I got even from an interior
811
01:05:04,682 --> 01:05:06,618
designer, that kind of endorsement.
812
01:05:06,714 --> 01:05:12,190
So I thought, okay, I know I haven't done this just in order to have four
813
01:05:12,260 --> 01:05:19,874
squares together also and look very pretty on a wall, but also this can look
814
01:05:19,912 --> 01:05:20,354
very good.
815
01:05:20,392 --> 01:05:28,614
So I don't want to rewrite anything here, but for me, it was a kind of it
816
01:05:28,652 --> 01:05:29,720
surprised me,
817
01:05:33,690 --> 01:05:35,862
and I think we touched on this.
818
01:05:35,996 --> 01:05:37,190
Sorry, go ahead.
819
01:05:37,340 --> 01:05:45,100
I said, but then not because I try to bring beauty in my work as well.
820
01:05:46,830 --> 01:05:49,674
Might be what is recognized as well.
821
01:05:49,872 --> 01:05:56,270
I think something that has got some errors in as well.
822
01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:59,774
Yeah. I find your work very beautiful.
823
01:05:59,892 --> 01:06:06,866
I think there is a sweeping I keep on coming back to the movement, but some
824
01:06:06,888 --> 01:06:11,010
of the sweeping motions in your work are just breathtaking.
825
01:06:11,350 --> 01:06:12,718
And the palette.
826
01:06:12,894 --> 01:06:15,140
I love the palettes you work with.
827
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:26,406
I think we touched on this before, and you briefly mentioned it, but if your
828
01:06:26,428 --> 01:06:31,114
artwork could talk, what do you think it would say about you as an artist to
829
01:06:31,152 --> 01:06:33,130
the viewer
830
01:06:36,750 --> 01:06:38,460
or what secrets would you
831
01:06:42,130 --> 01:06:43,470
quite intense.
832
01:06:45,250 --> 01:06:46,880
There's a lot of love.
833
01:06:50,850 --> 01:06:56,494
There's a lot of resilience and quite quirky.
834
01:06:56,622 --> 01:06:58,498
I think this is what I would say.
835
01:06:58,664 --> 01:07:01,266
Yeah. I've never posed myself that question.
836
01:07:01,368 --> 01:07:03,860
Thank you for it was a bit embarrassing, but fine.
837
01:07:05,370 --> 01:07:07,480
Well, we have to get to the good stuff.
838
01:07:11,690 --> 01:07:20,506
Yeah. I feel all of those things and your work, so I think that's a really
839
01:07:20,528 --> 01:07:21,340
good answer.
840
01:07:24,670 --> 01:07:33,630
It really does reflect you have a very genuine, loving presence.
841
01:07:34,450 --> 01:07:42,222
And our few times that we've gotten to really spend time together, I get
842
01:07:42,276 --> 01:07:44,020
that, and I think that comes through.
843
01:07:44,550 --> 01:07:45,874
We do match each other.
844
01:07:45,992 --> 01:07:46,660
Definitely.
845
01:07:50,310 --> 01:08:00,630
Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add before we head out? I'm
846
01:08:01,210 --> 01:08:04,870
really very happy working with you as a gallery.
847
01:08:05,770 --> 01:08:07,298
Thank you for saying that.
848
01:08:07,484 --> 01:08:10,380
Because of you, I feel really understood by you.
849
01:08:10,830 --> 01:08:14,380
And that is not how to say that is not
850
01:08:18,990 --> 01:08:21,262
special. So thank you for that.
851
01:08:21,396 --> 01:08:22,382
Oh, thank you.
852
01:08:22,436 --> 01:08:23,326
Thank you for saying that.
853
01:08:23,348 --> 01:08:24,960
That's really lovely to hear.
854
01:08:28,370 --> 01:08:30,640
I think this is a good team we've got here.
855
01:08:32,790 --> 01:08:38,046
All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and chat
856
01:08:38,078 --> 01:08:38,980
about your work.
857
01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:48,274
And please anybody listening watching, please check out Marius' exhibition at
858
01:08:48,312 --> 01:08:55,826
jennsingergallery.com/BlackSun, one of the paintings we spoke
859
01:08:55,858 --> 01:08:56,680
about today.
860
01:08:57,530 --> 01:09:00,118
So, yeah, thank you so much, Marius.
861
01:09:00,294 --> 01:09:02,426
Thank you so much for inviting me.
862
01:09:02,528 --> 01:09:03,622
Okay, that's a wrap.
863
01:09:03,686 --> 01:09:08,826
Thank you so much for joining me today for this preseason episode of The
864
01:09:08,848 --> 01:09:09,830
Gallery Date.
865
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,294
I hope you enjoyed the interview with Marius, and I hope you'll check out
866
01:09:13,332 --> 01:09:14,218
his exhibition.
867
01:09:14,314 --> 01:09:19,550
You could do a virtual walkthrough of the full show it's on
868
01:09:19,620 --> 01:09:23,338
jennsingergallery.com/BlackSun.
869
01:09:23,514 --> 01:09:28,174
And please send an email to info@jennsingergallery.com and leave your
870
01:09:28,212 --> 01:09:30,718
feedback, and I'd love to hear from you.
871
01:09:30,804 --> 01:09:35,890
All right, hope to see you soon.
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